"Race" in College Applications FAQ & Discussion 13

Moderator Note: This thread was created 6/7/22.

This is a continuation of previous FAQ and discussion threads about topics relating to race, ethnicity, and affirmative action in college admissions.

“Race” in College Applications FAQ & Discussion
“Race” in College Applications FAQ & Discussion 3
“Race” in College Applications FAQ & Discussion 4
“Race” in College Applications FAQ & Discussion 5
“Race” in College Applications FAQ & Discussion 6
“Race” in College Applications FAQ & Discussion 7
“Race” in College Applications FAQ & Discussion 8
“Race” in College Applications FAQ & Discussion 9
“Race” in College Applications FAQ & Discussion 10
“Race” in College Applications FAQ & Discussion 11
http://talk.qa.collegeconfidential.com/t/race-in-college-applications-faq-discussion-12/

While I can definitely see how TO policies can help some highly selective schools with diversity goals, through SCOIR at my kid’s very affluent high school I’ve been able to see that quite a few white kids were admitted to some of these schools with low test scores that I am certain they didn’t submit. I know these families personally and these kids weren’t recruits but did have strong grades but mediocre test scores significantly less than bottom 25% test scores for those schools.

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Why has the word race been placed inside scare quotes in the titles of all these threads?

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What’s the point of starting a thread that’s a collection of old threads?

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Here is a very interesting article on Affirmative Action and the cases against Harvard and UNC-CH coming up in front of the SCOTUS. Here just a few quotes from the article:

“Yet average Americans and elite-university officials view admissions policies in radically different ways. Many of the former imagine a meritocracy in which students who work hard to develop their talents are rewarded by admissions to selective colleges that will then help them advance in life."

"Universities have a far different vision, in which no one deserves admission. Instead, an admissions committee’s job is to create an educationally optimal environment on campus. That involves recruiting top students from every racial group. Yet, colleges also want to achieve academic excellence and racial diversity as cheaply as possible, because the cost of scholarships for needy applicants competes with faculty salaries, student amenities, and other priorities.“

“To its credit, Harvard picks classes that look like today’s racially diverse America; indeed, most undergraduates are students of color. But the school does not actually reflect America. Research by the economist Raj Chetty shows that Harvard has 15 times as many students from the richest fifth of the population as the poorest fifth. About as many students come from the top 1 percent by income as the bottom 60 percent. A multiracial aristocracy is more inclusive than an all-white aristocracy, but it is still an aristocracy. Likewise, the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill claims to be “the University of the people.” Yet students in the top income quintile are 16 times as numerous on campus as those in the bottom fifth."

“These schools, and many like them, have managed to create racial diversity without much economic diversity. Statistical analyses of evidence produced in the litigation show that Harvard and UNC give Black students more than twice the admissions boost that economically disadvantaged or first-generation college students receive. (At Harvard, the boost for legacy students is also much larger than for first-generation college students.) Seventy-one percent of Black, Latino, and Native American students at Harvard come from college-educated homes with incomes above the national median; such students are in roughly the most advantaged fifth of families of their own race. This is trickle-down economics.”

I have always understood that college admissions at highly selective schools have had preferences for the children of rich parents, legacies, and children like my own (students of color from educated households whose incomes are middle to upper middle class levels). I have seen some past discussions on keeping the status quo for racial diversity’s sake and to right our country’s past wrongs, but it is tough when the current status quo almost completely removes lower income people of all races from the equation (Honestly, low income families have never been part of the equation). I believe that no matter the final SCOTUS decision in the Students for Fair Admission vs. Harvard case, someone will feel aggrieved and continue this fight, but I am pretty confident that in the long term, those with the most money will win.

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It is fairly obvious that colleges prioritize racial diversity over SES diversity because:

  • Racial diversity is much more visible, and it is easier to market diversity to prospective students (as in “this college is great / inclusive / welcoming for people like you”) when it is more visible.
  • Race and ethnicity is often more of a hot button for people generally, compared to SES, so a college with a severe underrepresentation of some race or ethnicity can get a negative reputation on that aspect.
  • SES diversity can be expensive on the financial aid expense.

Race and ethnicity are not popular among the general public as college admission factors, roughly comparable to the unpopularity of legacy as a college admission factor, according to https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/04/26/u-s-public-continues-to-view-grades-test-scores-as-top-factors-in-college-admissions/ . However, to the extent that some students are unwilling to attend colleges where there are not enough students of their same race or ethnicity, that imposes sometimes contradictory pressures on colleges.

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Very interesting. Thank you for posting this.

I am somewhat confused by the idea that this is trickle-down economics. He makes the statement that " About [as many] students come from the top 1 percent by income as the bottom 60 percent. A multiracial aristocracy is more inclusive than an all-white aristocracy, but it is still an aristocracy." Shortly afterwards, he discusses the socioeconomic status of Black, Latino, and Native American students at Harvard. The proximity of those statements allows him to imply that those BIPOC kids at Harvard are also in the top 1% or at least significantly wealthier than many of their classmates. However, being above the national median income scarcely makes a household wealthy, and I suspect that even if seventy percent of those kids are coming from homes with college educated parents, the vast majority are not coming from households even close to the top 1%.

Given the wealth and income disparities between races, it seems quite plausible that that these students can be in the most advantaged fifth of their own races without being wealthy or the most advantaged students at Harvard. For example, I am pretty sure that my oldest daughter falls into the category of students to whom the author is referring. I certainly think that she has had plenty advantages in her life, and I would never call her disadvantaged. And yet she still qualified for a Pell Grant despite (I think) coming from a household around the national median income. So really just how high is the socioeconomic status of the “most advantaged” Black, Latino, and Native American students there and why are they the particular target of so many people’s ire instead of rich families? My guess is that most of these students are not among the wealthiest or most advantaged of Harvard students.

Socioeconomic status is really complicated in part becuase it is about more than money or parental degree attainment alone. For that matter, while the negative impact of racism is magnified for poor students of color, a middle class or upper middle class income does not [fully] protect nonwhite students from its harm or the disadvantages that they may experience in their classrooms --in other words, you can be a relatively privileged BIPOC student and still face considerable discrimination from teachers and school administrators and/or attend fairly K-12 segregated schools and/or be targeted for merely “walking while black” necessitating a set of “survival tactics” that few white students have to adopt.

I hope that elite colleges start increasing their numbers of low income and first generation college students, but it seems to me that admissions offices could increase those numbers by decreasing their admission of wealthy students and those coming from powerful families, most of whom are not actually students of color, Malia Obama aside :joy:. I remain skeptical that the focus often seems to be on race instead of wealth and power in these conversations.

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One of the most fascinating posts I’ve read on Reddit in a while. Supposedly from an adult. Thoughts?

Q: thoughts on including stipend amount from an internship? basically got some money to do an internship. do i list on common app to add legitimacy of the activity

A: Here’s my advice:

Do not include if you are an Asian male in CS. See, you don’t want to look like someone who wants to make a lot of money (which might be the impression you give if you put the amounts). Instead you want to look like you want to go to college to learn, you want to solve problems to better humanity, you want to make a difference, etc….Focus on those aspects of your aspirations. If talking about the past, focus on problems you solved, etc.

Looking at your user name, you are a male in CS. Not sure if you are also Asian, but if you are, please think about it!

Apparently being someone who only wants to make money and doesn’t actually want to learn or make a difference is fine for non-Asians. And women.

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I don’t know. I can’t speak to whether or not it is a good idea to include stipends or salaries in one’s common app, but I would not advise anyone of any race to state that their only goal in attending college is to make a lot of money. My guess is that as part of holistic admissions, colleges are hoping to find people who will contribute to their classrooms and campus. As much as colleges love monetary contributions by alums, I would imagine that they also want to see apps that include other more “noble” reasons for pursuing higher education. I don’t mean noble must equal bettering humanity necessarily, but greed alone probably won’t be as appreciated as love of learning or solving some issue of interest to the applicant.

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A comparison of the demographics reported in the 2019 (pre-COVID) Harvard freshman survey to the US census is below. The Harvard class is indeed racially diverse, but the racial diversity is not a good reflection of the US population. The survey suggests Harvard has 4-5x larger portion Asian students than the US population, and a lower portion URMs.

Harvard Racial Distribution
White: Survey = 47%, US Census = 59%
Asian: Survey = 28%, US Census = 6%
Hispanic: Survey = 11%, US Census = 19%
Black: Survey = 10%, US Census = 14%
Mixed: Survey = NA, US Census = 3%

The survey suggests a disparity in income with US population, not inconsistent with the article. I used 2018 since this is the most recent year for which there was not a “prefer not to say category”. However, only the .$500k income grouping has a greater disparity with US population than % Asian. I don’t think the disparity in income distribution is far larger than the disparity in racial distribution.

Harvard Income Distribution
Under $40k: Survey = 14%, US Households = 29%
$40-80k: Survey = 15%, US Households = 26%
$80-125k: Survey = 16%, US Households = 18%
$125-250k: Survey = 22%, US Households = 19%
$250-500k: Survey = 16%, US Households = 6%
Over $500k: Survey = 17%, US Households = 2%
Median: Survey ~= $150k, US Households ~= $70k

The lawsuit analysis suggests there is indeed a greater admissions preference for URMs than low income students. However, the analysis suggests a similar degree of preference for URMs and legacies, and admitted legacies dominate the >$500k income category with the greatest degree of disparity as summarized below. If Harvard wanted to improve income disparity with US population, good place to start would be eliminating legacy preferences.

Harvard Matriculating Legacy Income Distribution
Under $40k: Survey = <1%, US Households = 29%
$40-80k: Survey = <1%, US Households = 26%
$80-125k: Survey = 10%, US Households = 18%
$125-250k: Survey = 19%, US Households = 19%
$250-500k: Survey = 22%, US Households = 6%
Over $500k: Survey = 46%, US Households = 2%
Median: Survey = near $500k, US Households ~= $70k

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My view is that universities should be able to whatever they want, as long as they don’t accept government aid. But if they do want to have differing admission standards on the basis of any protected class, they or their students should be ineligible for Pell Grants, subsidized student loans, or grants from the state. Perhaps it should also preclude federal research dollars as well.

It would be a major change from the current laissez-faire approach where we shower colleges with federal and state funding and hope they do what the taxpayers want. But as California Proposition 209 showed, universities will actively ignore what taxpayers want, convinced they know better. The only real way to enforce it is to hit their wallet.

While the popular consensus is that the Court will overturn affirmative action, I don’t expect them to go as far as tying it to federal or state dollars. But if they did, it would shake up college admissions to be more fair.

Note that I chose protected class deliberately, rather than just race. The biggest effect would actually be on sex, not race. For most colleges it would actually increase the percentage of women and reduce that of men, leading to more gender mismatch. And of course, an entirely separate discussion needs to happen regarding single sex colleges. Should they be grandfathered in, or given an extended amount of time to become coeducational?

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Interestingly enough, the same survey found that, compared to 2019, a smaller percentage of survey respondents now say that high school grades and test scores should be a major factor in college admission (this was the case across race/ethnicity and political party). However, high school grades was still (by far) the factor that the highest percentage said should be a major factor (61%), followed by test scores (39%), while all other factors had under 20% saying they should be a major factor.

Regarding race/ethnicity, it would not affect the >60% of colleges (>70% among public colleges) that do not consider race/ethnicity in admission (if their common data sets are to be believed). However, the common data set section C7 does not ask if gender is considered, although it is likely that many of the colleges that are not actively trying to shape the race/ethnicity of their students are also not actively trying to shape the gender of their students (they are probably only moderately selective and just want the best students by academic measures they can get, with minimal leeway to consider other things).

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The interesting point here is that the writer thinks an Asian should answer one way and non-Asians should apparently answer a different way.

Perhaps the lack of responses means I’m the only one that finds this odd. Is there a list of Asian-specific college application advice?

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If you mean hiding one’s race/ethnicity if one is Asian, that seems to be common around these forums and probably elsewhere, based on widespread belief that being seen as Asian is a disadvantage in college admissions.

But it looked like the part about trying not to appear too money-focused is something that may be suggested for any applicant, regardless of race/ethnicity. Saying the assumed part out loud (like writing in a Harvard application essay that you want to go to Harvard because you want to be a highly paid investment banker or management consultant at graduation) is probably not the best way to get a positive rating from an admission reader, even if it is the most honest thing you can write.

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Under your standard, few if any schools would be able survive without succumbing to the dictate, and kids and families that value diversity and/or gender balance will have zero options, unless they were wealthy and an extremely wealthy school happened to be able to go its own way. That’s your version of “fair.”

Why should the tests-and-grades zealots get to dictate admissions policy for every school and every student in the nation?

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Nice attempt at a strawman there.

If you paid attention to Prop 209 and the failed attempt to rescind it, you would realize that there is a widespread belief even in a blue state that race and sex should not impact admissions. It goes far beyond the “test and grades zealots”.

I strongly believe that taxpayers and voters have a right to choose how their tax dollars are spent, even if the results are not what I personally would choose in some cases. The only restrictions I would impose is that what voters want cannot violate the law.

Note that Hillsdale has chosen to go this route of foregoing federal student aid, so it can be done. But most colleges are dependent upon federal and state aid, including obviously all the public universities. They just want the money without restrictions.

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