So here is what the AP schedule looks like for now, although it may change.
Freshman - none
Soph - AP World History*, AP Human Geo, AP Stats
Junior - AP US History, AP Lit, AP Calc, AP (either Macro Econ or Comp Sci)
Senior AP English Comp*, AP Spanish, AP Bio, AP Chem
The only other 2 AP’s she could take instead are Art History (probably not) or Music Theory (definitely not)
The ones marked * are taken by a large % of the college bound students.
I’m guessing that the top 5-10 students in her class are probably taking this many, with another 5-10 taking one less, so it’s a huge competitive disadvantage to not do so.
AP Chem and AP Bio are probably the two most rigorous AP combination you can possibly take at the same time (Physics C + AP Chem is also super difficult to pull off). Alongside with that you’re taking two other APs? Sounds like GPA suicide to me. Anyways, it all depends on the person. I know somebody personally who has taken AP Chem and AP Physics concurrently along with 3 other AP classes and he was still able to maintain a 4.0 UW. Also, don’t worry about the sciences being redundant, because APs are way different from the typical honors/standard classes. I have heard of people acing honors chemistry but ended up failing the AP counterpart.
Many many high schools require regular or honors science classes before the AP version. It may seem redundant or odd if your school doesn’t do it that way but it won’t raise any eyebrows in college admissions. At schools with these prerequisites, the AP courses don’t repeat the basic material but instead use the AP year to study the subjects in depth or to explore additional topics.
I know I am probably in the minority here but with the perspective of a parent with a child currently in college I would tell you to relax.
Partly due to the gaming you mention and partly from the fact that everyone gets a trophy these days, many school systems have eliminated class rank. Often the Honors Parents lobby for this as a way to not appear disadvantaged in rank versus the weighting that an AP would get versus the Honors class. Often the school will cite a benefit of cooperation versus competition.
Since so many schools do not rank, and since, frankly, rigor and grade inflation or deflation vary so wildly at the local level, I think rank is less and less a differentiator. What good is it for my valedictorian to know that they would not even be allowed in the Honors Classes at your school?
Standardized tests like AP subject tests and ACT/SAT can provide a bit more intel to someone trying to rank people on a scale.
A student is much better off taking classes they like and can be enthused about and having time to pursue things that interest them outside school like jobs or volunteering or sports than to grind in angst over some .005 GPA gap that is objectively meaningless outside the walls of your school
A student that is well-rounded and has a coherent resume outside school can make a better case for themselves and gets a head start on learning what they like and dislike in the world.
Take the schedule you want and do as well as you can but don’t join in on gaming the system. It is not worth it and will not make much of a difference on what colleges you get into…
My kids’ HS does it that way too. You can’t take any AP science class without taking the regular class first, it even offers “pre-AP” which would be sort of like honors at other schools, I guess. So D took the hardest “pre-AP” classes of all 3, took AP Chem as a junior, at the same time she was taking “pre-AP” Physics. She also doubled on senior math - AP Calc and AP Stats. Senior year she took AP EnvSci instead of AP Bio or AP Physics.
As she aimed for a career in public health/epidemiology, she made a case to colleges in her supp essays and wherever else for Stats and EnvSci (and Spanish, actually) because they directly relate to the work she hopes to do in public health. She did a one semester independent study in Neuroscience too so she graduated with 5 1/2 years of science classes on her transcript.
Stats and Enviro may seem “fluffy” to some but at her HS AP Stats is a difficult course (and she took Calc too) and AP EnvSci had an amazing, enthusiastic teacher that everyone wanted to have a class with. She took them for reasons unrelated to GPA. And I would recommend the same to anyone - just like in college, some high schools have amazing teachers that kids are lucky to get, and it can be worth choosing those classes independent of ranking/GPA considerations.
FWIW D wasn’t in the top 10%, mainly due to her school changing weighting of advanced courses midway through her 4 years, but more because she took what interested her even if it was hard and even if she wasn’t able to get an A. Her GC, who showed us her rec letter, made kind of a big deal about her willingness to push herself just because she loved what she was learning.
It’s my understanding that HS math taken earlier counts. At D’s HS those “HS” courses taken in MS were on her HS transcript, along with the language courses she took in MS.
I also wonder what your D thinks about this plan. She’s just finished 8th grade, is that right?
When my son started his junior year in high school, I specifically advised him to stay out of the ranking game and just focus on maintaining top 10%. I think it really helped in reducing (unnecessary) stress. He was very happy to take my advise because one of the things he hated the most about his high school experience was being surrounded by classmates who only cared about gaming the ranking system. He even started to avoid having lunch with his closest friends (all top students) because that’s all they ever talk about during lunch hour. The Val in his class, according to him, was only interested in achieving the val status at the expense of everything else. She even gloated about it when she achieved it. Among top 10 students, she ended up worst. All the top students who invested most of their high school years in gaming the system didn’t fare all that much better, either.
@VickiSoCal I would not be surprised if 10% of our son’s HS class of about 700 had a 4.0 UW. He had a 4.0 UW and UC determined he wasn’t ELC (eligible in the local context) which is top 9% of the school. About 10% of the class are going to Ivies, Stanford, Berkeley, MIT, and Caltech. So it’s probably an unusual demographic for a school. While there may be grade inflation, the kids are getting 5s on the APs. For example, about 90% of the AP Calc classes will get a 5 on the exam. Your D’s HS may grade exceptionally tough though - we don’t have IB.
I appreciate all this advice I also fully understand that I’m being neurotic. But I’m trying to at least get her started on the path to get to the top, so if she chooses to continue on it she had the option.
She is on board with the plan, although a bit concerned about how tough it might be. And I will not push her if after a year or 2 she decides not to pursue this path.
I know high school is different, but she has been cruising through middle school with mostly A+ grades and the occasional A. Both her older brothers had very slight drops in GPA in high school, but started from a lower place. She does this while playing reasonably high level club soccer year round with a decent amount of travel, plus coaching and refereeing and several other activities. She definitely won’t be pursuing academics only at the expense of other activities.
With the grades she is getting while playing club soccer, she probably has learned good time management skills with the demands that the soccer has. That will help her in HS and beyond.
I feel like my kids just kind of floated to their own level. We never really had the expectation of an “elite” school so I think it made it easier for us to look at things that way. I knew my older D was a good student but I really didn’t realize she was on such an aggressive track until her freshman year meeting with her adviser to discuss her sophomore year schedule. She was asked if she was trying for Val or Sal and my D said with surprise “No, it’s just what I need to take”. D2 was essentially the same except that I think if she had had AP Calc AB as an option she would have preferred it. Their school ranked but by the time it was something they really cared about the pecking order was pretty much set so they just worked to do the best they could and their transcripts spoke for them.
I wholeheartedly agree with @2plus2ition. Grades are very important, of course, but scrambling for #1 and piling on the APs just to game the system isn’t what it’s all about, especially if it’s at the expense of other interests.
I believe top 10% and rigorous courses are what they’re looking for, in addition to SATs in the 700s. Above that, they’re looking for interesting kids who have taken steps to pursue an interest above and beyond a high school club or sport. They’re also looking for compelling, well-written essays. It’s the whole package.
The college admissions of D’s class proved the truth of the above. #1 will be attending a good college, but there were several ivy/elite admissions below the top 10 kids.
I highly recommend the book “How to be a High School Superstar” by Cal Newport.
“A student is much better off taking classes they like and can be enthused about and having time to pursue things that interest them outside school like jobs or volunteering or sports than to grind in angst over some .005 GPA gap that is objectively meaningless outside the walls of your school”
I totally agree with that and generally tell students to take less APs, work less, get more sleep and enjoy high school more. Unfortunately while what you say is great in theory, it is not practice by students and parents applying to the top schools.
This is what the colleges say - take the most rigorous schedule you can, based on your ability, take classes that are competitive with other students in your class. Translation - if a few kids take a lot of APs, more will follow suit.
@theloniusmonk They also mean if you can handle __AP vs __Honors as far as rigor. Not taking AP music theory or AP Psychology to boost gpa even though they exhibit no interest in the subject.
@dadof4kids – i have no advice, but it’s certainly a good original question. Too bad there’s a system that you’re seeing; i think non-ranking HS would be great. It’s interesting how families have found out how to maximize it all; i wouldnt have thought of all of that.
for our 4 kids: we’ve focused strictly on merit schools; we’re midwest and dont quite have that culture of wanting elite. In focusing on merit schools, we made sure our children took HARD classes, and classes they wanted. Yes, AP art history, Ap Studio, Ap Music were all included in that for our D16! We encouraged the oldest two to keep their GPA as high as possible; both had 3.9something unweighted. We did not worry about weighted or class rank. We had them take test prep and focus in on areas that needed attention for their ACT tests. They did the best they could do. Both ended up with full-tuition scholarships - although not at elite schools. So - don’t know the answer; but i’m curious about it all for our last kid and will be reading up on it.
(just yesterday our S20 mentioned how if he had taken a study hall Freshman year, instead of a chosen non-honors class, his rank would be higher. Sometimes it just doesnt make sense). Just keep encouraging your D to be her best and enjoy.
@VickiSoCal considering the number of our kids who go on to win national academic honors, I’m not concerned about grade inflation. I would list some, but it might be too much identifying information. This year, graduates will be attending every Ivy League school except Cornell, as well as UCLA, Berkeley, Georgetown, Notre Dame, Vanderbilt, Tulane, WashU, MIT, Georgia Tech, Boston University, Brandeis, Johns Hopkins, Wellesley, Vassar, Duke, Auburn, and an array of public honors colleges and smaller LACs (all of which are consistently named on this board).
We are similarly situated with I think every Ivy except one this year about 30 Berkeley and 30 UCLA (obviously a lot were the same kids), 2 national and one world chem Olympian, naval and army academies and so on. But almost no one gets an unweighted 4.0. The lower range for top 5 percent is probably around 3.8 unweighted given where I know my daughter is at and that she just missed top 5 percent.
As I said above it is quite common to get a B in an AP class and then get a 5 on the test.