<p>*Her school allowed 78 applications, and after she got finished filtering out everything she wanted, she could not come up with 8 schools. *</p>
<p>I meant to say 8 applications.</p>
<p>I agree about the "bottoms up" approach, but I might differ greatly about what the "bottom" is. I have no idea what financial aid is like at the SUNY schools. I do know from your income that your EFC is going to be around $1,000. While our family income is a bit higher than yours, our total bill - including student contribution - at a private LAC is less than half of what our state university would have cost us. So if finances are really the controlling issue, the "bottom" might be a LAC where her stats are in the top range, and which is seeking URM, and NOT the state university. On the other forum you began, there was a list of diverse LACs, not necessarily the very top ones, that would provide a terrific education for your d. and, IF they accepted her, would likely give you a ton of financial aid.</p>
<p>Based on her scores, I think that any of the top 25 national universities would be a longshot for her as would probably most of the liberal arts colleges that are ranked top 25. The exceptions would be Bowdoin and Holyoke, which are excellent liberal arts colleges that are SAT optional.</p>
<p>As others have stated, for most students, in state public universities are their best bets for financial safeties. That doesn't mean that your daughter can get into all of NYS' public institutions. It does mean that she's likely to find a match and safety there that she'd also be able to afford. This particularly is true if there are public institutions in your area, so she could live at home and commute.</p>
<p>I seem to remember that you and your D don't want HBCUs. In a way that's too bad because Xavier College in New Orleans has the country's best track record for getting black students into med school.</p>
<p>That being said, a liberal arts college that you should take a look at is Union College in Schenectady. it has strong science programs, and, I think, particulary sends students to SUNY Albany medical school. It has a longtime history of outreach to black students, including in the NY area, and I also think gives good financial aid. It's a well regarded college that I think might be a good match school for her.</p>
<p>Syracuse is known for attracting lots of black students and being generous with aid. There's also a strong black alum network there. That's a place for your D to check out.</p>
<p>While your D has nice grades , stats and ECs, she doesn't seem comparable to students (including black students) whom I've seen get into Ivies. I have seen black students with scores a couple of hundred points higher get rejected. The black students whom I have seen be accepted with scores like hers have had EC achievements at a national level.</p>
<p>Since, though, I don't have a crystal ball and am not an adcom, if she's interested in such colleges, she still should apply -- while also putting time and effort into match and safety schools after making sure that all of the schools that she applies to offer the kind of financial aid she'd need to attend. No reason to apply to schools where she's likely to get in, but isn't likely to get the $ to attend.</p>
<p>
[quote]
While our family income is a bit higher than yours, our total bill - including student contribution - at a private LAC is less than half of what our state university would have cost us. So if finances are really the controlling issue, the "bottom" might be a LAC where her stats are in the top range, and which is seeking URM, and NOT the state university.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Mini has hit this nail on the head because it was one of the main reasons the D did not apply to any SUNY schools. we already knew that we made too much money for Pell, and wasn't banking on getting any TAP $ (which is why I was shocked that she got some from Barnard). Even though D had the grades and scores for the Honors programs at SUNY there are so few slots for the thousands of students that aply, we had better odds at the elite schools. </p>
<p>we went into the process knowing that we would have to pay something, but we would have been paying close to full freigh at SUNY because most of the aid they give is in loans. One of my co-workers has 2 kids at SUNY makes less than I do and has to full pay for 2 kids.</p>
<p>I know that D got a $60,000 leadership scholarship from Mount Holyoke when she was accepted. This scholarship along with the grant she was given came out to $31,000 in grant scholarship aid . Her scholarship from Bryn Mawr was $40,000 merit in the need based FA and the total grant aid was higher than MT holyoke. Mini's D got a nice scholarship which also gave her the opportunity to study abroad and do research at Smith. The reason that these schools keep coming up in our conversations to you is because they deliver, academically, financially and socially.</p>
<p>while Bowdoin is looking to increase its diversity, it is about 3% African American. That is another whole issue you need to deal with as far as talking to students and finding out if the school does a good job of embracing and supporting black students. </p>
<p>For my d the hair issue was a big thing as far as where does one go as there is not an overwhelming supply of black hair care products (not even in Hanover where she currently is, but she has friends who do hair).</p>
<p>If she were to apply to Howard and is ranked 1 or 2, her scores and grades would get her a legacy scholarship of tuition and fees. Raise the score to 1300, it would include room.</p>
<p>
[quote]
a liberal arts college that you should take a look at is Union College in Schenectady. it has strong science programs, and, I think, particulary sends students to SUNY Albany medical school.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I second Northstarmom's recommendation to consider Union. The faculty are quite dedicated to nurturing motivated students (and your daughter is clearly very motivated--given how she has managed to thrive despite a troubled school environment.)</p>
<p>Minor correction to NSM, however. There is no "SUNY Albany medical school." The only medical school in the Albany area (Capital District) is Albany Medical College, a private medical school, which is actually affiliated with Union College. (Albany Medical College, founded in 1839, is one of the country's oldest private medical schools. It affiliated with Albany Law School, and Union College in 1873 to form what is now called "Union University.") </p>
<p><a href="http://www.amc.edu/academic/college/%5B/url%5D">http://www.amc.edu/academic/college/</a></p>
<p>It's important to note that Union admissions have gotten increasingly competitive in recent years and statistics have been rising. They do seem to have an exceptionally friendly admissiions and financial aid staff and very helpful admissions webpage, with good general advice:</p>
<p>Another private college with strong and nurturing faculty is Russell Sage College in Troy, a women's college, where your daughter's credentials might put her more strongly in the running for merit money.</p>
<p>You may want to keep in mind that the New York Tuition Assistance Program (TAP) for low-income families will help both public AND private in-state colleges meet your family's need. Effectively, NY will provide a subsidy of up to $4,000 to any public or private college your daughter attends, as long as it is in-state. (And this is over and above any Federal Pell grant aid, income tax credits, or outside scholarship aid your daughter may get.)</p>
<p>mini:
[quote]
There will be some changes in the 2004 list, notably in Princeton, with the no-loan policy kicking in. The impact of that policy, however, has the largest impact on admitted students with incomes between $85-$150k (the top quintile, but not top 5%.)
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</p>
<p>I am puzzled: why do you think this policy does not impact students with incomes less than $85K (or impacts them less)?? Do you mean that these students did not have to take loans even before this policy?</p>
<p>We qualify for Pell grant. Two kids will go to college next year: one to Princeton, another to Lawrence University. The EFC is approx. the same, both universities meet 100% of need, but for the Lawrence kid, the finaid packet includes loans (Stafford+Perkins). The offers from other colleges included at least the same amount of loans; all of our friends' kids who qualified for aid also received the aid packages with (at least) same amount of loans, and my understanding is - that's how the aid is generally structured in most cases (unless a university wants to woo a particular kid and gives him more grants). If a kid qualifies for federal help, they include it into the packet. So - I guess, if Princeton did not have this no-loan policy, we'd have to take the same loans for another S, too... and that would be quite a large impact for our family, that's for sure.</p>
<p>Or maybe Princeton did not include that many loans into the finaid packages even before the new policy? Otherwise, I can't see how the policy have less impact on low-income families. Let's say, paulchem's D would pay $1K plus work-study in Princeton, and she would pay the same and additionally she would have to take $6K in loans in some other "100% need" college... Looks like a quite a big difference.</p>
<p>So I took a look SUNY-Stonybrook. For an in-state student living on campus, taking into account all costs, it comes to around $16.5k. Your income, I'm guessing, puts you toward the top of the Pell range, so let's say you get $1,000 a year in Pell, and another $2,000 in TAP. Leaving costs of $13.5k/year, to be covered by summer work, workstudy, and loans (or outside scholarships.) This is actually a pretty good situation for a college student these days. </p>
<p>But with an EFC of $1k, plus $2k expected summer earnings, roughly $2k in workstudy; and an expected $2,650 subsidized Stafford Loan, you are looking at roughly $35k/yr in grant-in-aid from a 100% of need LAC, roughly the same (I think) that Sybbie's d received at Dartmouth, and slightly more than mine (I think our income is higher.) Nothing of course is set in stone, and you have to find the right place that both accepts her, and gives her that kind of package. But IF that were to happen, you can see that the cost of the private LAC would turn out less than Stonybrook.</p>
<p>No promises. I have no inside information. The number of vagaries and uncertainties are huge. But don't necessarily think that the state school is the safe and/or least expensive option.</p>
<p>"I am puzzled: why do you think this policy does not impact students with incomes less than $85K (or impacts them less)?? Do you mean that these students did not have to take loans even before this policy?"</p>
<p>IT DOES, IT DOES! But in aggregate (NOT for any individual student), the largest percentage of financial aid in the form of loans that Princeton gave out (roughly 70% of the students receiving loans) went to students with family incomes between $85-$150k - let me be clear, too, that I'm abstracting from H. data, who have been more open about where their aid has actually gone). It does not impact lower income students less. From Princeton's point of view, however, the chief (but not only) impact is to make them more competitive among students in these higher income brackets who were picking up merit aid and Honors College places at state unis and elsewwhere.</p>
<p>Back to the topic: I wholeheartedly second (third?... whatever...) the idea that the kids who qualify for finaid may be better off in private schools, especially the "100% need" ones. Public universities may cost less, but they are not that generous with the finaid, they just do not have means.</p>
<p>mini:
Aha, in aggregate! Got it.</p>
<p>Could you give a link to H's data? I was always curious about their "parents pay nothing" wording in that "under $40K" policy... If they still include Perkins+Stafford loans into the finaid packets for those kids (well, these loans are taken in kid's name, so the parents still pay nothing) - then it does not look as good as Princeton's "no-loans"</p>
<p>But Mini- we don't know if her daughter will be admitted to Dartmouth-Union-or elsewhere. Remember she is a NYC kid- and all Metro NY kids are a dime a dozen. (and I don't care what ethnic-racial or economic background we come from.) There are just too many Metro NY kids competing for the same seats especially in east coast schools. Also- those not familiar with CUNY (Hunter College). Kids live at home and commute to campus. My educated guess is that a year at CUNY would be well under $10,000 (including books and transportation) I am sure it has been mentioned, but did you look into the Sophie Davis Program??? As a prudent person, I would apply to 2 or 3 Suny/Cuny schools and have fun picking the others. Good luck.</p>
<p>Could you give a link to H's data? I was always curious about their "parents pay nothing" wording in that "under $40K" policy... If they still include Perkins+Stafford loans into the finaid packets for those kids (well, these loans are taken in kid's name, so the parents still pay nothing) - then it does not look as good as Princeton's "no-loans"</p>
<p>It was in back issues of the Crimson, following announcement of the policies. (For very poor kids, I still think the loans are secondary issue, the primary one being workstudy and summer contribution, when funds are needed back home.)</p>
<p>As to the east coast schools - well, I made a list of midwest ones. Others have made lists of the women's colleges (which have much more diversity.) Again, I don't know about admissions - but with another retake of the SAT I, Paulchem's daughter would seem to be well within the ballpark of all but perhaps 15-25 schools at the top. Does it mean she'd get into all of them? No. No guarantees anywhere. Which is why you have to choose carefully.</p>
<p>Union also is SAT optional, which would work to your D's advantage, too.</p>
<p>what about CCNY? Seems I read a NY Times article within the last month saying how it has improved a lot and is attracting some very strong students who are turning down higher ranked colleges to go there. This included, I think, students planning on going to med school who wanted to save $ on their undergrad education while still being on track for med school.</p>
<p>
[Quote]
you are looking at roughly $35k/yr in grant-in-aid from a 100% of need LAC, roughly the same (I think) that Sybbie's d received at Dartmouth, and slightly more than mine
[/quote]
</p>
<p>we were able to negotiate using that Great aid package that we got from williams which made Dartmouth step up by $4000 Daughters SAT scores were more than 250 points higher and she came form one of the top public schools in NYC</p>
<p>
[quote]
My educated guess is that a year at CUNY would be well under $10,000 (including books and transportation) I am sure it has been mentioned, but did you look into the Sophie Davis Program??? As a prudent person, I would apply to 2 or 3 Suny/Cuny schools and have fun picking the others. Good luck.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>SAT scores are below the Sophie B. Davis or CUNY honors threshold I think they require at least 1350. </p>
<p>Average SAt for Honors college is 1342 (661-math and 671 verbal) average 93.4
The Upper tier CUNY Schools: Baruch Hunter and Queens I think are looking for a 1250 sat and a 92 average because of their increased popularity</p>
<p>I agree that the OP's daughter should be looking at private schools. There is good merit aid at the right schools for her. I personally think she needs an academic safety also...thus my suggestion that she continue to review the SUNY campuses. I'm not an adcom, but I'll stick my neck out here....I do not believe that this youngster has the profile to be absolutely accepted at an Ivy League school or equivalent. Academically she is way above average but not superior. Standardized test wise, she is above average but not superior. ECs are adequate but again...not superior. Awards are negligible (sorry, perfect attendance and student of the month awards are not notable on a college application). BUT there are a LOT of terrific LACs that this youngster WOULD be very welcome at...and would receive some merit aid as well. Most of these schools do not guarantee to meet full need, however. Look at the many options of LAC's in Pennsylvania...Muhlenberg, Dickinson, Drexel, Lehigh, Susquehanna, etc...there are a ton of them in a very small radius in PA and at many this student would be near the top of the applicant pool which is where merit money can be found. In addition, they would likely give some need based aid as well.</p>
<p>English 24
Math 28
Reading 22
Science 21</p>
<p>Avg 24</p>
<p>What do these scores mean and are the better or worse than her SAT?</p>
<p>A 24 ACT composite is 77th percentile, her 1200 SAT CR+M is 78th percentile but on College board's conversion chart ,which is in common usage, a 24 translates to a 1110. Colleboard's chart disses the ACT. Imagine that. Use the SAT. For girls her SAT scores are 81st percentile.</p>
<p>Her math ACT is 92nd percentile BTW.</p>