<p>I recently had a conversation with a NYC union journeyman ironworker who said he makes a little over $100k without overtime. I’ve also heard of instances when an operating engineer made over $200k in a year (OT included).</p>
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It’s not law in NYC. I know of at least one major contractor here that has gone non-union, and there have been rumors swirling around about other major contractors going non-union as well. This is all a result of the economy and the clients looking to save money. Next time you’re in NYC, just look for the giant air-inflated rats on the sidewalks…</p>
<p>“The only proof I have is from the seminars I attended, which included many owners and ceo’s as well as HR people from various engineering firms. When you have the CEO of Moog or Praxair telling yop data you tend to take them for their word and not require proof. I gather I could send a email asking for proof, I can do that if you would like, just let me know.”
If you’re offering, I’d love to know where they get their information from. In general, when you use such specific evidence as they did, it’s not uncommon to mention the source right in the talks.</p>
<p>“As for me having a engineering degree, I have a degree in CS from a engineering department from a top 20 school. While I havent been out of school for more than 4 years, I cant say from personal experience that I will be fired. What I do know is what I was told by various representatives from many companies.”
I remain skeptical as to the usefulness of such “sources” of “information”. Talk is cheap… it’s much harder to actually back some of it up with numbers.</p>
<p>"Should I expect every engineer to get fired in 4-5 years, no. Do I expect some to, yes. "
Well, that’s just common sense. What are the odds that nobody will be fired within 4-5 years? The question is what the percentage is. Talking it about it one way can make the number sound very large, and talking about it another way can make it seem very small. One way that can help make it more objective is to put some standard measure to it.</p>
<p>“As for why people go to school instead, well they do that for reasons I have stated above. The main reason is that lifting a pencil is easier on the back than picking up heavy metal objects all day. Most of the men in my family are in one trade or another. I have access to nearly any union I could think of, though I chose to get a degree. The reason for that is, even though the pay may be less, I will not come home with a hurt back and I wont be exhausted. I also wont be subjected to the high number of environmental toxins those in the trades are subject to.”
That’s all well and good, but I’d imagine that most people who go into engineering aren’t necessarily doing it because they fear back problems or exposure to toxins. I mean, most people do it because menial, manual labor doesn’t sound very appealing as a full-time profession. Engineering - among other things - requires more mentally than do most trades. I don’t think anybody would argue with that.</p>
<p>"Well one would have to have pretty good soial skills to be a lawyer and most engineers really dont. "
<p>uhh, engineering is about 50% communication to your team / 50% problem-solving. If you can’t communicate, i.e. be able to socially interact, then you’ll never be a competent engineer.</p>
<p>They’re not my statistics. Those are the nationwide statistics collected by the US Department of Labor. I don’t know that the DoL has any reason to lie about the wages of machinists.</p>
<p>I see - so perhaps there’s also some sort of conspiracy by the government to convince more people to major in engineering, given by the possibly fictitiously high wages that engineers make. </p>
<p>Yet the government’s strategy doesn’t really seem to be working out - as according to the Department of Education less than 5% of all bachelor’s degrees conferred in the United States are engineering degrees. </p>
<p>Oh, wait maybe the Department of Education is involved in the conspiracy as well.</p>
<p>What I found is that, within the NewYork/NorthernNJ/Long Island metro area, the annual mean wage for the following job classifications in 2008 was as follows:</p>
<p>I guess it would not be uncommon, but it was 2 years ago, so I may have forgot if there was one. </p>
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Like I said, I will try and get the source. </p>
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<p>From the context of the seminars, it was mad pretty clear that this was the large majority and not the minority of workers,. </p>
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<p>Being able to communicate with people who also cant communicate, is not really the same level as how lawyers speak. Obama is a lawyer, and his speaking skills aren’t even that good compared to some lawyers ive seen. </p>
<p>The ability to speak like that is a gift, and its not learned. </p>
<p>As to Sakky, Im not discrediting the data you have presented, it very well may be true. Though from my experience, those in the trades at least those in my reach make numbers much more than the data suggests. Maybe the guys in my family are just very good at what they do, I don’t know. What I do know is they make very good salary’s and get very good benefits, compared to what a engineer would make.</p>
<p>Engineering doesn’t mean smart or that you are respected, have you ever been to a construction site. Engineers are laughed at.</p>
<p>"Engineering doesn’t mean smart or that you are respected, have you ever been to a construction site. Engineers are laughed at. "
A professional boxer would laugh at an engineer if he stepped in the ring, but that doesn’t make the boxer smarter than the engineer. Engineering is just harder mentally than trades… that’s why it requires 4 additional years of school. For instance, don’t architects and engineers design the building before the construction people touch it?</p>
<p>Yeah they do, my point is, if you have ever been on a construction site, its the contractors who sometimes know a good bit more than the engineer. Real world Experience trumps book knowledge in most cases. While something looks like it will work great on paper or on the computer, its the contractors who usually catch the engineers in their mistakes, as they have seen and done it already.</p>
<p>The difference may be that the BLS numbers probably take non-union workers into account, and I’m guessing your family members are all union.</p>
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<p>For the most part, but there are often a lot of back and forth changes after the initial design is complete due to constructibility issues (to be fair, the architect is to be blamed at times as well). I’ve had foremen join in on meetings with the engineer to brainstorm for ideas on how to correct a situation where the design was impossible to build. It is also not uncommon for the contractor to propose a solution for the engineer to approve.</p>
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<p>The construction industry is one that weighs experience heavier than others, such as software. You won’t find any recent grad starting their own million dollar company right out of college here. All this doesn’t mean that tradesmen are smarter than engineers, but at the same time, experience is something that is just as valuable as an education. That’s why it’s important for engineers to spend time out in the field and not just in their cubicles.</p>
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A union ironworker apprentice here in NYC makes more money (before OT, based on a 40 hour workweek) than some recent grads I know who entered structural engineering. One goes to apprentice school which is paid for by the union; the other paid 4 years of tuition on their own. However, the good thing about engineering though is your job is typically a little bit more stable and quality of life is better.
ironworker apprentice: $28/hr * 40 hrs * 52 weeks = $58,240
Having a bit of trouble finding data on starting salaries for structural engineers in the NYC metro area, but those who I do know started below $58k</p>
<p>The BLS doesn’t seem to have much information on starting pay, but it does say that the median pay for the following jobs categories in the NYC metro area is:</p>
<p>Civil Engineer - $84470
Structural Iron and Steel Workers - $66460</p>
<p>Haha, only top machinists will make exceptional salaries above that of an engineer, and that is including overtime. All other machinists will make what is stated in the BLS reports. It all depends on the type of machinists too. A machinists working on aerospace parts will make significantly less than a machinist that has to manufacture $200,000 parts for an oil company. Yeah, as member stated, it is well known in the manufacturing industry, that general contractors or even welders in some cases will modify the designs engineers give them. An engineer may seen an efficient an complex contraption he just design and think well of himself. However, the welder or contractor putting that contraption together will see too many moving parts and systems that will have a higher tendency to break down due to their complexity. I’ve seen tradesmen take blueprints and make the systems more practical. In all actuality, this is a good thing. Overkill is not necessarily cost effective. We don’t want to spend more time fixing parts on a machine than we do using it. In the end, it works out to the benefit of the company. Sometimes engineers just aren’t practical enough. Also, most patent lawyers can’t find jobs either right now. When things like manufacturing and R&D get slow, patent law gets slow because people aren’t designing systems to get patented. IMO, if you want to be a lawyer, and go through the hell of Law School, just get out of anything industry related completely. Do tax law or something, that is one thing you know will never go away, haha.</p>
<p>“Tax law relies on the government having complicated taxes. That means it relies on government regulation to exist.”</p>
<p>…</p>
<p>Me: So a guy and a pig walk into a bar…
MrPayne: That’s preposterous. Why would a pig walk into a bar?
Me: It’s just a joke, MrPayne.
MrPayne: Joke?</p>