<p><a href="http://students.haverford.edu/code/%5B/url%5D">http://students.haverford.edu/code/</a></p>
<p>The solution: instead of doing what the students have decided and not ratifying the code, we are just going to have plenary after plenary until the code is finally passed. Because god knows if we don't have a code then we'd loose all of our fame. jesus.</p>
<p>sorry for the sarcasm, but i was a litle angry with this decision. i would just be interested in hearing how prospective students would view haverford if it didn't have an honor code</p>
<p>When my daughter visited Haverford in her college search, the emphasis on the Honor Code was a big turn-off. To the point where Haverford was scratched off her college list, even though it otherwise met all of her criteria and would have been a natural option.</p>
<p>Apparently, every other word out of the tour guide's mouth was "Honor Code" and my daughter just felt like she had been beat over the head with a baseball bat by the end of the tour/info session.</p>
<p>I too would be interested in college appplicant and other current HC student opinion as well. </p>
<p>Although disturbing for current students and applicants, -and it would trouble me if I were currently a student as well (at haverford... cause I'm now at UCLA)- ...with my experience, this isn't quite as shattering as it first appears. </p>
<p>Like I said before, the 100+ year old honor code is still a work in progress and reflects what students want out of it. If a part of its history is to include (most likely, a temporary) suspension of its activity, then so be it. An honor code should never be forced on any group which does not heartedly support it because such actions will cause mistrust and rampant cynicism. If current students in their wisdom feel that a trial of not having an honor code is due because of a complacent student body, then maybe that is a good idea. By not having a code for a while, students may realize just what they are missing. I'm betting though, from my experience, the code will (eventually)come out stronger as a result. Actually, I and a group of my friends in college, wrote a resolution to suspend the code for a while because it seemed to us that students were getting somewhat apathetic with the responsibilities of the code. </p>
<p>This is nothing new... heated debates with the honor code seem to regularly cycle like the emergence of cicadas on Duck Pond Lane and issues with race, class, athletics vs other college endeavors seem to- as a friends puts it- "spring up every year with the g-d damn daffodils". This is probably due in large part because of the cycling of students every 4 years and the need for entering students to figure out these issues for themselves. Can I imagine a Haverford without such debates and discussions? no... it's what makes college and Haverford such a great life experience. Kids becoming adults by wrestling and trying to figure out for themselves where they stand on life issues. In my opinion, a haverford experience where students don't question the personal importance of the honor code is a haverford experience not worth having.</p>
<p>What still impresses me is that students are the ones who are trying to figure this whole thing out... not the administration. This issue, and the subsequent debates/discussions that will undoubtedly follow, really reflect the responsibility and trust that the administration gives to haverford students and the power that students come to demand. The honor code is the essense of haverford and it is owned by the students. </p>
<p>If Haverford lost its honor code permanently (very very unlikely), I know that event would sadden a great number of my friends and I, and many other loyal alums because we know, in entering the "real world", just how much of a unique experience and valuable opportunity the honor code truly is. I'm sure HC will continue to thrive without the honor code and wind up blending in with the mass of other top colleges. But, given my undergraduate experience, knowing that there will be no other college out there that strives to explicitly challenge its students both academically and philosophically the way Haverford does with its honor code, makes me feel sad for future student who will not have the same opportunities as me.</p>
<p>Interested Dad</p>
<p>Like at every college, there is a spectrum of students from zealots to completely complacent/apathetic individuals with the majority somewhere in the middle. </p>
<p>I'm sorry if your daughter felt "beaten over the head" with the honor code by her tourguide, as that was/is a gross misrepresentation of the code in the life of Haverford students... it's actually something very positive and not overbearing in the least. Her guide may have been "aggressive" in explaining the code because it's such a central experience to HC (and you can ONLY understand it in its complexity if you experience it) and IT IS NOT for everyone, so that the guide may have spent time discussing the code to help applicants decide if it appeals to them or not. The honor code isn't like a material resource at haverford that can be explained in a simple sentence or even paragraph. Haverford distinguishes itself from the other colleges because of the honor code and, because of the Code, it probably repels more applicants than it attracts... top students who have grown too accustomed to thriving in a competitive environment where external recognition is demanded... but that's fine with me and to probably many people affiliated with the college as well.</p>
<p>As an example, my brother chose Swat over Haverford and I the opposite based on the honor code (and a few other issues as well). But when he started taking classes at HC (Japanese, advanced topic econ) and experienced the code for himself, he thought it was a "good" idea, gave a unique undergraduate experience but it didn't particularly resonate with him. He also said, and I agree, that the code could only survive at Haverford. He couldn't imagine an honor code at swat, not because the students there "didn't need an honor code" to be responsible and respectful to each other, as you too often suggest, but rather because Swat students just don't care about such things as the culture there is more individualistic, less community focused, more sarcastic and swat relishes the tough, stressed-out "see how much work I have" bravado it perpetuates... by the way, talking about work loads at Haverford is frowned upon. </p>
<p>However, there are some draw backs to the honor code and the sense of community and modesty it encourages. For one, there is being modest, and then there is being MODEST to the point where it hampers people's desire to confront others, debate and take action and I found some HC students coming too close to the latter. I did find it refreshing at times to go to Swat, hang out with my brother, my girlfriend, their friends and my friends for that reason. However, for me, despite its few shortcomings, the experiences and opportunities the honor code offers outweighs the (-).</p>
<p>Finally, I see that you are very interested in giving your personal experience with college admisisons and generously supporting college applicants in their decisions with your advice (3000+ posts!), but as someone who has actually experienced the honor code at Haverford, and is familiar with the workings of both Swarthmore (1 year older brother), Haverford (me) and Bryn Mawr (2 year older sister), I would encourage you to appreciate the limits of your experience and knowledge. After all, I'm sure you do not want to unintentionally provide inaccurate information to trusting college applicants.</p>
<p>I have too much work to do and life to enjoy and I can't believe I'm back on this site... but thinking about something really P-SSES me off... then no more comments... until next weekend.</p>
<p>It's clear that "Naivemelody" in posting her thread is conveying her mixed emotions and frustration with the code not being ratified and also the controversy with how students are debating the appropriateness/ inappropriateness of dealing with the situation afterwards. I imagine it's a difficult time for her and the campus.</p>
<p>What I find utterly perverse and disturbing is for a 50+yo man by the name of "interested dad" to leave such a careless and insensitive post immediately afterwards... it's totally out of place. Clearly, for better or worse, the honor code has been the foundation of Haverford's identity for the last 100+ years and for an outsider and especially a parent to leave a condescending post during this time... "well...my daughter hated it, otherwise she would have applied"... is beyond common sense.</p>
<p>I don't have the time nor patience to look thru ID's 3500+ other posts but hope that they do not take so lightly other people's values. If ID doesn't have anything insightful and INFORMED to say about Haverford, he should probably keep his comments at the Swat thread and not have them metastasize here. </p>
<p>Finally, 3500+ posts since 2004? Is there a contest of some kind? Is the prize a toaster? You need to seriously find a hobby of some kind... or seek some type of support group for your internet addiction.</p>
<p>the end.</p>
<p>naivemelody asked a very specific question:</p>
<p>"i would just be interested in hearing how prospective students would view haverford if it didn't have an honor code."</p>
<p>I was answering her question based on one prospective student's view. </p>
<p>I found it very frustrating to tell you the truth. I felt then and feel now that Haverford would have a been a great school , but when she came back from visiting Philadelphia schools, she was strongly negative about Haverford. </p>
<p>As it turns out, the hard-sell on the Honor Code was the primary reason. I think she was put-off for two reasons: Why wasn't the tour guide talking about all the other great stuff? Did it really take such emphasis on an Honor Code for kids to behave honestly and treat each other with respect? It seemed odd to her; none of her friends in high school would have ever dreamed of cheating.</p>
<p>YIKES!!!!. haveford without an honor code? what's the freakin point? it's the sense of community, values and modesty that make it so different and appealing. I don't know much about the code but just reading about it and talking to a few people about it, makes me really dissapointed if it wasn't there. ok, so the class of 2010 has some work to do. fine.
I'm really annoyed at current students. what are you guys thinkin? get off your lazy ass and do something!!!!!!!!!! the code isn't just yours but it also belongs to students who will come after you as well (i'm still hoping to get in). it's like the environment. you have to take care of it now (even though it's not easy and you have to give up stuff) because you want it to be there for people afterwards. don't be so selfish. i really hope this is just a temporary thing.</p>
<p>Curious...
How many times in the past has the honor code not passed because it failed to achieve a quorum? And in what fraction of those times was it ratified soon after in a special plenary?</p>
<p>
[quote]
I'm really annoyed at current students. what are you guys thinkin?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I wouldn't be surprised if there is serious concern being expressed by the students over the new "speech code" language inserted in the Honor Code -- vague language prohibiting hurtful speech, verbal, written, or on internet forums. </p>
<p>Considering recent examples of the Honor Council proceedings over speech code issues getting out of hand (see Bert and Ernie abstract), the students may have a legitimate concern that the Honor Council is not the best forum for these issues. There may be a concern that the Honor Council not turn into the PC police.</p>
<p>I'd like to 1st start off with an apology to Interesteddad. I shouldn't have taken my disagreement with him to a personal or sarcastic level as that is out of character for me. Im sure he genuinely wants to see applicants choose the right school and he takes the time to provide information that he believes to be accurate for that purpose. Yesterday night, writing online after 2.5 beers and my friends bugging me to get off the computer to go out not a good time for writing something thoughtful and not good judgment. </p>
<p>I have many issues, however, with the anecdote regarding his daughters visit to Haverford that he has used here AND, seemingly, on several other threads as well. Whether intentional or not, the image it conveys is a Haverford where the honor code is an omnipresent and heavy weight on students, which is a Haverford I do not know after all, the code couldnt even reach quorum this year, so how beaten over the head can it really be? </p>
<p>Although he may have been giving his personal experience, I think people not familiar with Haverford would have read it and then extrapolate it to be the truth. I think we should be responsible not only for what we write but also how it may also likely be interpreted by applicants as well. During college, there were 3 major sexual assaults at Swarthmore by 2 students in several months... one of which was forced to transfer to Columbia and received much national publicity for that reason. Would I go to a forum for applicants or parents wanting to learn about safety on college and then just say, Well, at Swarthmore, there have been 3 assaults in a short time period and leave it at that? Of course not, because it's a gross misrepresentation of the facts and reality. I would just be careful with anecdotes... and the generalizations that would surely follow.</p>
<p>Finally, the Honor code, as written, tries to convey what the honor code truly means to many students and it does an incomplete job of it. "Can honor be codified?" has been debated for 100+ years at Haverford. The honor code is something that can be appreciated but not necessarily understood by people outside the Haverford experience. Even if you are well read with Haverford, you will not be able to 100% understand the nuances of the code and how it challenges students. In fact, many students dont form solid conclusions about the honor code until late in their college experience and sometimes only afterwards. Thats why I find it difficult to see someone with only a tangential experience with Haverford comment on the code (a daughters 30 minute visit?). There are clear issues with the code, and I will be the 1st to recognize them, but I think that applicants would be best served if the information was received from a more direct source. </p>
<p> crap... now I'm even more behind with my work </p>
<p>My two sons (seniors in High school) visited Haverford several times in the past 18 months. I can sympathize with almost every post on this thread. One son was quite turned off by the heavy emphasis on the code."Why do they need a code to know how to interact with each other?" One son made Haverford his first choice because of it. His reaction to reading this news was similar to the other applicant who posted a reaction: " How could the current students take this away from future students who just made Haverford their main choice?"</p>
<p>Obviously, for some, the idea of an Honor Code that the community lives up to, defines, bears witness to after college, and learns from, appeals to those who want to occupy a leadership position, those who experience the lawlessness of internet communities, those who want to make a social difference, those who want a different way to organize the community after high school, and to those who have spiritual reason for wating to lead an ethical life. </p>
<p>Even if such idealism is tempered by four years of dealing with the truth that not everyone takes any community code as seriously as others might wish...losing Haverford's honor code as a distinct value proposition amongst other colleges would be a real loss and a hard to replicate distinguishing factor in the rough competitive business of being an elite college. If I was an alumni, I might be concerned that the coin of the realm was being tampered with. Without an Honor code, I find that Haverford's distinguishing characteristics are its location, its smallness, its past reputation. I do not see how a long standing tradition is disrupted without several years of roiling consequence to the endowment, the attractiveness of the applicant pool and the exclusive self definition so necessary to prevent instituitional excellence from sliding into institutional.
Ever read about the constant battles Colgate and Denison Administrators fight with their alumni and students to carve out a substitute for the (very different) traditions they want to change??</p>
<p>Perhaps Haverford should take a lesson from Washington and Lee, which boasts the oldest and finest honor system in the country. Instituted by then president of the school Robert E. Lee, it's not a set of codified rules but rather a system of behavior that's expected of all students.</p>
<p>They'll ratify an honor code. The Honor Council will pull the new language from the draft and the students will pass the honor code. Not really a big deal.</p>
<p>If you read the "Bert and Ernie" decision, you'll see the problem of trying to enforce PC speech codes through the Honor Council. Bert and Ernie made a mistake, but the whole thing could have been handled much more effectively by a chat with the Deans. Instead, the incident just went from bad to worse as the Honor Code procedures were used to enforce PC behavior.</p>
<p>Speech codes are a very touchy subject on college campuses these days. Allowing students to haul someone before the Honor Council for something written on an internet chat site may not be a great idea.</p>
<p>Let's not put W&L on a pedestal. It has long-standing "behavior" issues related to drinking, sexual aggression, and intolerance that make Haverford look fantastic! Haverford has a very effective, positive campus community.</p>
<p>I agree that W&L and Haverford are both fine institutions and possess excellent academic and community atmospheres. However, looking strictly at honor codes/systems, it seems that Washington and Lee's is stronger than ever while Haverford's is struggling amid an identity crisis.</p>
<p>I don't see any reason to think that Haverford's Honor Code is struggling in any way whatsoever. Somebody got a little too gung-ho trying to ram a speech code into this year's draft and the community said, "no thanks" by not voting to ratify the changes. Just a simple expression of the students' ownership of their Honor Code. They'll go back to last year's Code and it'll be ratified in a week. No big deal.</p>
<p>Okay, point taken, agreed! Thanks!</p>
<p>While many schools technically have an "honor code"...few make as much effort to keep it a "living" breathing anchor of the community like Haverford does. Few make it a point of making sure it is one of the things a new applicant wrestles with before coming to the school.
Ratifying an honor code by taking out the offending language in response to a threat to do away with the code entirely seems a heavy handed, flippant and uncaring response to even having one.(Reminds us of those who would trumpet the holding of elections as a signature of community approval...but forgetting that Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Castro were "elected").
Perhaps the more apt comparison than W&L in terms of how seriously close to the bone the Honor Code is puportedly held ...would be West Point or the Naval Academy?</p>
<p>Just curious why you think that W&L's Honor System is not an apt comparison to Haverford's. Seems strong to me: <a href="http://www2.wlu.edu/web/page/normal/84.html%5B/url%5D">http://www2.wlu.edu/web/page/normal/84.html</a></p>