2006 NYC Law Firm Bonuses

<p>Though I promised myself I wouldn't, I just have to jump back in here for a moment to respond to lskinner. Though I have gone through a lot of rough times at biglaw, and I know hundreds of other attorneys who have done the same, I have never before heard a complaint based upon the lack of autonomy. What job did you expect to get right out of law school where you would be completely out on your own -- your own boss -- without simply just hanging out your own shingle day one (a scary thought to me, knowing how little anyone really knows about the actual practice of law the day they graduate from law school)? What job does anyone get right out of any program in school, short of starting their own business, where they get tons of autonomy? What are the highly autonomous alternatives that one should consider in lieu of working in a big law firm?</p>

<p>I think that it is wise to look at the first few years of practice as a well paid apprenticeship. You do what you are told to do, including working long, unpredictable hours, working weekends, proofreading, photocopying, and whatever else you are asked to do, and in return, you receive invaluable experience in how you actually work like a lawyer. By comparison to some other junior professionals, like medical residents, newly minted lawyers are treated like gold. </p>

<p>As I mentioned earlier, there is a lot of responsibility on deals available to young associates, and the associates who speak up and ask, and the associates who prove themselves capable are the ones most likely to get that work. I always enourage young associates to take responsibility for their own training, and not to leave the management of their deal flow/litigation matters solely to the random assigning person. Speak up! Offer to do more. Get the work that will train you to be the best possible lawyer. If you don't get that experience as a junior lawyer, it can hurt you throughout your career in a variety of ways (happy to discuss another place, another time). Take responsibility and you will be given responsibility. Frankly, I was absolutely amazed at the complicated and important things I was asked to and allowed to do when I was a first and second year associate.</p>

<p>
[quote]
What job did you expect to get right out of law school where you would be completely out on your own -- your own boss -- without simply just hanging out your own shingle day one (a scary thought to me, knowing how little anyone really knows about the actual practice of law the day they graduate from law school)? What job does anyone get right out of any program in school, short of starting their

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<p>I doubt that anyone expects total autonomy from day 1. However, without knowing any better, most people would expect a level of autonomy that is commensurate with their skill, experience, and intelligence. </p>

<p>After 2 or 3 years, most associates with half a brain are perfectly capable of taking depositions, arguing motions, and exercising real authority over how a case is prosecuted or defended. Particularly if there is a more experienced attorney they can go to with any questions.</p>

<p>If any potential BIGLAW associates are reading this, please let me assure you that you will most likely be denied the opportunity to do such work. Not because you are not up to doing it, but because more senior attorney will hold on to it for themselves.</p>

<p>sallyawp has not really denied any of this. Instead, she argues -- in essence -- that the positives of BIGLAW outweigh the negatives. Which may very well be the case. In fairness to BIGLAW, my salary allowed me to buy a really nice house for my family that I couldn't otherwise have afforded. I also got the opportunity to work with 2 or 3 excellent attorneys, from whom I learned a lot. As well as many many incompetent attorneys. From whom I learned a lot as well.</p>

<p>None of this changes my main point, however.</p>

<p>
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If any potential BIGLAW associates are reading this, please let me assure you that you will most likely be denied the opportunity to do such work. Not because you are not up to doing it, but because more senior attorney will hold on to it for themselves.

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<p>Just because this may have been your personal experience does not make this true everywhere. In the law firms where I've worked and where close friends and colleagues work (Cravath, Wachtell, S&C, Skadden, Willkie Farr, Simpson Thacher and Davis Polk immediately come to mind), this is not generally true. I have never tried to say that you weren't unhappy or that you shouldn't have been unhappy if you weren't getting substantive work, and I haven't actually been trying to argue with you, lskinner (contrary to what I now presume you thought you were doing with me). I was merely pointing out that yours is only one of many viewpoints about biglaw out there. In my experience as an attorney, as a recruiting attorney, as a mentor, as a team leader and as a junior, mid-level and senior associate, I have certainly come across attorneys with viewpoints such as yours, but they are the small minority. Not everyone is happy at biglaw (I certainly wasn't always), but I've never before heard mentioned a lack of autonomy as the reason for the unhappiness (incidentially, I would have to list too much travel and long hours as the main reasons). </p>

<p>Senior attorneys hoard work only when there isn't enough work to go around. Sadly, that is also the first sign of a financially unhealthy practice group, if not, law firm. When work is plentiful, a senior attorney can't delegate important tasks fast enough. I've been there. I am there.</p>

<p>The reality is that despite anything that you or I might ever say on this board, there will always be many more law students vying for positions in biglaw than there will be positions for them. My intent on this law board has been merely to educate and explain the practice of law to those who have no other window into that world. Your viewpoint is certainly valuable, but it is only one of many out there, and your experience is by no means generalizable beyond you and perhaps your practice group.</p>

<p>I'm sure that the associates at Milbank Tweed who were notified of their bonuses late this afternoon (ranging from $30,000 (pro rated) for first years up to $65,000 for eighth years) are feeling okay about their work today. I'm sure, too, that they are hoping that S&C or Skadden will top their announced bonuses so that Milbank will then top theirs off. Only time will tell ...</p>

<p>
[quote]
Just because this may have been your personal experience does not make this true everywhere. In the law firms where I've worked and where close friends and colleagues work (Cravath, Wachtell, S&C, Skadden, Willkie Farr, Simpson Thacher and Davis Polk immediately come to mind), this is not generally true.

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<p>Do you deny that BIGLAW associates don't regularly get the sorts of work that I listed in my previous post?</p>

<p>((1) taking and defending important depositions; (2) arguing motions and being lead counsel at court conferences; (3) examining witnesses at trial; (4) dealing directly with the client (not taking notes at a meeting -- actually having one-on-one discussions with the client where significant issues are discussed); and (5) making important decisions (not suggesting things -- actually having authority to make decisions.))</p>

<p>Do you think a reasonably intelligent attorney with 5 years of BIGLAW experience is capable of competently handling such tasks?</p>

<p>
[quote]
I'm sure that the associates at Milbank Tweed who were notified of their bonuses late this afternoon (ranging from $30,000 (pro rated) for first years up to $65,000 for eighth years) are feeling okay about their work today.

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<p>I doubt that every last associate feels this way. </p>

<p>If any potential attorneys are reading this please understand that making money should not be the most important thing to you. Instead, serving others, intellectual challenge, and this sort of thing should be more important. </p>

<p>Attorneys make good money, but the fact is that you can make a lot more money if you get an MBA or start your own business. There's absolutely no shame in trying to make a buck. But if that's your main goal, don't go to law school because you will probably be unhappy as an attorney and in any event, there are much more efficient ways to make money.</p>

<p>Just my humble opinion.</p>

<p>From a young man who has no intention of ever practicing law (but did major in economics and has a natural curiousity):</p>

<p>I wonder if you're right about the financial differential of an MBA. Certainly an MBA is a much better ticket to riches than the vast majority of JD's -- but is that true once you've become an associate (presumably on a partner track) at one of these big law firms? i.e. we're talking about a very select pool of lawyers on this thread.</p>

<p>Could that same student, instead of going to law school, have entered the business world and done better for himself?</p>

<p>
[quote]
I wonder if you're right about the financial differential of an MBA. Certainly an MBA is a much better ticket to riches than the vast majority of JD's -- but is that true once you've become an associate (presumably on a partner track) at one of these big law firms? i.e. we're talking about a very select pool of lawyers on this thread.

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<p>I believe that the vast majority of BIGLAW associates do not make partner. So BIGLAW partners are a very select group indeed. (Query what qualities are selected for!) At the same time, I would guess that the analogous select group of MBA's (perhaps people who make partner at Bear Stearns?) make a lot more money.</p>

<p>i think there are certain economic realities that factor into what associates at large firms get to do. think of it this way -- if you are large company paying umpty-ump thousands of dollars every year to GIGANTIC LAW, who do you want to be dealing with -- who do you want to see getting up in court to represent you -- who do you want to see at an important meeting -- one of the hundreds of associates who come and go over the years, or a partner or high level associate you have an ongoing relationship with and who you know has the experience you feel you are paying for?</p>

<p>the first firm i worked for represented a lot of BIG clients -- client contact was much rarer for a young associate. a smaller client was often used as an opportunity to give an associate a greater role. it was not unusual for a junior partner to be involved in something that a junior associate could have handled alone because the client wanted to know a partner was on it.</p>

<p>the second firm i worked for represented more small and medium sized clients -- more clients who were more cost conscious and didn't mind paying for a more junior associate's time. client contact and significant case responsibility came much faster at this firm than at my first one. and even then, the speed with which an associate could be given responsibility turned largely on issues of client sensitivities -- partners had to be very careful not to let a client think that the partner thought their work wasn't important enough for the partner's own attention.</p>

<p>A few points from reading all of the posts here:</p>

<p>Here's the breakdown of JD v MBA:
1 - you can get into a great law school right out of undergrad; the average work experience of an MBA student is 5 years, although the typical i-Banking route is 2-3 years as an analyst or Sr. analyst, then B-School</p>

<p>2 - you will make more money as a lawyer first (unless you get a wall street job, but if you think BIGLAW is bad, multiply it by 1000 and you get Wall Street)</p>

<p>3 - you will make WAY more money in business later (about 5-6 years out of school). Even top partners at top profit per partner firms make less than business professionals 10-11 years out of b-school. And remember - very few people make that partnership.</p>

<p>4 - B-school is WAY more fun than law school. Forget about the money, if you don't like the law, don't go to law school. You'll hate it, you'll hate yourself, you'll hate your job...it's bad. Do something you like. Law school is hard, it's a lot of work; you should like what you're studying. </p>

<p>On the BIGLAW practice: I joined a BIGLAW firm after graduating with a JD/MBA from a top tier school. I can only compare it to being an i-banking analyst in a small boutique shop - my first job out of college. I like(d) both of these jobs, and both of them had crazy unpredictable hours, complete disregard for my personal life, etc, etc. All with a fat paycheck (which was just for fun when I was fresh out of college, but now I actually need to pay off my loans). The big difference: when I need to make 20 copies of bound books for tomorrow's board of directors meeting, at i-bank I was there until 6am trying to make the photocopier work and the binding machine bind - tasks that I was definately not prepared for by my ivy league education, at the law firm I drop it off at the word processing/copy center ask them to have it done by 8am, thank them profusely and go home. The extra 3 hrs of sleep after an 18hr day: priceless. That's my first big argument for BIGLAW. My second big argument for BIGLAW is that it IS a great resume builder, and if you're not quite sure what you want to do when you grow up, it's not a bad way to spend some time trying to figure that out, learning some skills and all the while making some $ to make a dent in those student loans.</p>

<p>As for responsibility, in both places it's largely a matter of luck and what you make happen for yourself. E.G. a couple of months ago I negotiated a few dozen non-disclosure agreements. (I am very junior) It was fun, and it made the hours of running changes easier to bear. I got to do this because of luck (mid-level associate and senior associate were both tied up on other deals) and because when the partner asked if I thought I could handle it, I looked him straight in the eye and said "absolutely". </p>

<p>I really like my job, and the pay check does make it a bit nicer. But the pay check is not enough to make you like it. Do what you like. You'll be more successful, and you'll be happier.</p>

<p>I have family members in legal professions and my oldest just got his JD. I'm sure that this has been gone over but going to throw out the bits I learned for the h.s. kids.
Law schools grade on the true curve. Georgetown law 1st years are all academic stars getting in, but some will get D's and F's because it is built into the system.
Only the top 10-15% of the class is recruited. You can't assume you will be recruited at all, recruited by biglaw and by the type of firm where you'd personally find success.
I know some big firms are great and some are miserable places to work. All businesses end up with thier own corporate culture. I would assume not only the personalities of the writers here are different-the climate of the companies they worked for were different as well.</p>

<p>"coming in on the weekend because you decide it is necessary in order to get your work done and not because a senior associate or parter told you to come in."</p>

<p>I'm a 5th year at a big Vault firm. No one has ever told me to come in, or even that I must work from home on a particular day. They give me a project and a due date. When and where I get the work done has always been up to me. Not all firms are the same.</p>

<p>"Do you think a reasonably intelligent attorney with 5 years of BIGLAW experience is capable of competently handling such tasks?"</p>

<p>Most of them, sure. But the clients aren't paying $500+/hour for "competent" work. Our clients demand that the work be done as well as it is humanly possible to do it. I surely cannot take the world's best deposition right now, or develop the world's best trial strategy, but I want to learn how it's done, which is why I'm working for the people I'm working for. If you want to talk to a jury in your second year out of law school, become a public defender. That's perfectly cool. If you want to learn bet-the-company complex litigation from the ground up, a big firm is a very good place to be.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I'm a 5th year at a big Vault firm. No one has ever told me to come in, or even that I must work from home on a particular day. They give me a project and a due date. When and where I get the work done has always been up to me. Not all firms are the same.

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<p>That's great. But, if any would-be associates are reading this, please keep in mind that this experience is atypical and that associates have a tendency to exaggerate their level of autonomy. </p>

<p>
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Most of them, sure. But the clients aren't paying $500+/hour for "competent" work. Our clients demand that the work be done as well as it is humanly possible to do it.

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<p>That's an interesting question: Whether the BIGLAW approach yields better results for the client. A lot of the time, it does not. For one thing, the partner who is taking the deposition or arguing the motion typically does not have the same intimate knowledge of the facts or law as the associate who made up the deposition outline or drafted the brief. For another, employees who are given little or no autonomy tend to get disheartened after a while and stop using their intelligence, creativity, and initiative to improve the project. I've seen this happen a million times. </p>

<p>But in any event, that question is secondary to my original point in this discussion. Even if there are legitimate reasons for it, the fact is that BIGLAW associates get very little autonomy and/or responsibility.</p>

<p>
[quote]
But in any event, that question is secondary to my original point in this discussion. Even if there are legitimate reasons for it, the fact is that BIGLAW associates get very little autonomy and/or responsibility.[./quote]</p>

<p>No, I think that you, unfortunately, had very little autonomy and responsibility as an associate. That is far from true in the majority of cases. Please don't generalize your own experience to every associate in big law firms.</p>

<p>"please keep in mind that this experience is atypical"</p>

<p>My experience may be atypical, but it also isn't a random coincidence. I chose not to go to New York or even DC. I chose to look for the firm with the best culture for associates instead of the firm that paid the most or the firm with the highest Vault ranking. I chose to start my career with a clerkship. I think my experience is quite typical of those who make the same choices I did.</p>

<p>
[quote]
No, I think that you, unfortunately, had very little autonomy and responsibility as an associate. That is far from true in the majority of cases. Please don't generalize your own experience to every associate in big law firms.

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<p>If this is how you feel, then why not answer the questions I asked earlier?</p>

<p>I will repeat them:</p>

<ol>
<li> Do you deny that BIGLAW associates don't regularly get the sorts of work that I listed in my earlier post?</li>
</ol>

<p>((1) taking and defending important depositions; (2) arguing motions and being lead counsel at court conferences; (3) examining witnesses at trial; (4) dealing directly with the client (not taking notes at a meeting -- actually having one-on-one discussions with the client where significant issues are discussed); and (5) making important decisions (not suggesting things -- actually having authority to make decisions.))</p>

<ol>
<li> Do you think a reasonably intelligent attorney with 5 years of BIGLAW experience is capable of competently handling such tasks?</li>
</ol>

<p>
[quote]
My experience may be atypical, but it also isn't a random coincidence. I chose not to go to New York or even DC. I chose to look for the firm with the best culture for associates instead of the firm that paid the most or the firm with the highest Vault ranking. I chose to start my career with a clerkship. I think my experience is quite typical of those who make the same choices I did.

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<p>If I may ask, what is your salary as a 5th year associate?</p>

<p>I’ve been lurking on this thread for a while, and suppose it’s time for me to throw in my two cents.</p>

<p>What we all seem to be looking for out of our careers is some combination of (a) meaningful and interesting work, (b) a pleasant work environment, (c) material rewards, and (d) some amount of leisure to enjoy those rewards with those we love.</p>

<p>There are trade-offs between these four things. Keeping them in balance is a lifelong challenge for lawyers. And what is the right balance for any individual changes over time. Some young associates at big firms feel they are achieving great material rewards, but not doing meaningful or interesting work. Some find the work environment in big firms distinctly unpleasant. Even those who thrive in the environment usually feel they have too little leisure time. (I’ve never been a big-firm lawyer myself, but my work has brought me into close contact with them.) Those who stick it out seem to have no shortage of meaningful and interesting work or material rewards, and most of them seem more than content with their work environments. But big law firms are not the only path to these things. And there are different ways to define what makes your work meaningful.</p>

<p>Early in my career, when most of my clients were poor people who were struggling to receive compensation from insurance companies, or who were desperately trying to avoid being evicted from their apartments, a woman I had just started dating asked me whether I was an “important” attorney. I told her that my clients thought so. </p>

<p>I have managed “bet the company” litigation in which the other company lost, and became part of my company; I have drafted and negotiated contracts involving the exchange of scores of millions of dollars. I’m certainly grateful that I have had the chance to work on these matters. But I’m not convinced that this is the most important work I’ve ever done.</p>

<p>I would like to respond to you, lskinner, by describing a few of the tasks that I did when I was a junior associate in a big law firm, rather than by resopnding point by point to your questions.</p>

<p>On my second day of work ever at my big law firm (yes, that's approximately six weeks after I took the bar exam and before I knew whether I passed), I was pulled out of the law firm's orientation program and sent to San Francisco where a partner and I met with our clients and then with their proposed business partner to hammer out the main points of a proposed joint venture. Though I was honestly (and reasonably, I think) a bit shellshocked into silence by the experience, the partner sought out my opinions and actively engaged me in the discussions. I was then involved with a senior associate at the firm in drafting all of the primary deal documents, and was included in all client meetings and conference calls. Talk about getting thrown in the deep end! It was fantastic. Did I do some more mundane tasks during my first year, too? Of course I did. It's all part of the learning that one has to do -- you know, you have to crawl before you can walk. I also worked on periodic filings with the SEC (10-Q's, 8-K's, etc.), I drafted memoranda on various grey areas in the law or on new regulations affecting one or more clients, I attended formal training sessions at the firm and departmental lunches, I reviewed auditor's comfort letters and drafted opinion letters, I drafted and reviewed closing documents, etc. All were valuable learning experiences, and I felt that those learning experiences were exactly the reason why I went to work at a big law firm. </p>

<p>As a rising second year associate (meaning that the new crop of first year associates had just arrived from graduating law school and taking the bar exam, for those of you who may not know) and during my second year, I was given the lead resopnsibility (with a partner reviewing my work and answering my questions) for an MTN (medium term note) takedown, filing with the SEC a universal shelf registration statement and prospectus and registering with the SEC an offering of debentures to be issued by a sovereign (which was a seasoned issuer). I also worked on numerous complex and headline making acquisitions where more senior attorneys guided the way (thankfully!) and I drafted, negotiated, attended client meetings and learned. </p>

<p>By my third year, I was running some smaller acquisitions on my own, while still working on some more high profile and complex transactions with one or two more senior attorneys on the deal team. My deals were always very leanly staffed and I was reponsible for, among other things, drafting, meeting/speaking with clients on my own and in meetings, speaking with regulatory authorities (such as the FTC, DOJ, NYSE, NASDAQ and SEC) and generally, doing whatever needed to be done.</p>

<p>I was not an extraordinary associate (though I think that I was darn good), nor was I alone in doing such resopnsible work early on . . . far from it, in fact. My firm had too much work and not enough time to handle things any other way. If an associate failed to prove themselves on one or more matters, yes, then that associate probably found themselves later on with less responsibility or less interesting deals to work on. However, as I was often told, "the competent get punished", and I worked a tremendous number of hours doing all of this work (and, admittedly, more than once at 4 a.m. after pulling an all-nighter or two during the prior week, I cursed the level of responsibilty I had). </p>

<p>Now, lskinner did mention one thing that I thought was particularly interesting regarding making important decisions (not suggesting things -- actually having authority to make decisions). The thing is that most decisions regarding strategy and substantive matters are for the client to make. It was my job, and the job of the other attorneys in my firm, to run through the list of options and the risks associated with each of those options with our clients, but it was typically up to our clients to make those calls. Did I misunderstand your meaning, lskinner? </p>

<p>I was also asked whether a reasonably intelligent attorney with 5 years of experience is competent to handle responsible tasks, and I think that that answer depends on the attorney him or herself. It depends upon the experience that attorney has had, and the level of responsibility and, even more importantly, initiative that attorney has taken on in those prior tasks. It depends on the personality of that attorney. It also depends, as has been mentioned earlier on this thread, on the demands of the client. As has also been mentioned, it is not enough to simply be competent to handle a task. Most attorneys at big law firms are probably intelligent enough to handle most tasks at hand. The real question, I believe, is whether an attorney is capable of mastering a task and achieving the best possible outcome for his or her client.</p>

<p>"If I may ask, what is your salary as a 5th year associate?"</p>

<p>You can ask, but I'm not giving details. My firm pays market, and in this market that means first-years start at $135k.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I would like to respond to you, lskinner, by describing a few of the tasks that I did when I was a junior associate in a big law firm, rather than by resopnding point by point to your questions.

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<p>It's just two simple yes or no questions.</p>

<p>Since you continue to dodge them, I will answer them:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>BIGLAW associates do NOT regularly engage in the responsible work that I described.</p></li>
<li><p>A reasonably intelligent associate with 5 years of BIGLAW experience is perfectly capable of competently handling most or all of these things. Perhaps somebody with more experience could do a better job, but then again, perhaps enthusiasm makes up the difference. Of course, everybody has a first deposition; a first oral argument; a first trial; etc.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>In any event, associates are not denied the opportunity to do this sort of responsible work because they are not ready for it. They are denied these opportunities because they are in line behind a lot of more senior people.</p>

<p>
[quote]
). The thing is that most decisions regarding strategy and substantive matters are for the client to make. It was my job, and the job of the other attorneys in my firm, to run through the list of options and the risks associated with each of those options with our clients, but it was typically up to our clients to make those calls. Did I misunderstand your meaning, lskinner?

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<p>I don't know about transactional work, but in litigation, I generally make decisions such as which court to file in; what sort of discovery schedule to file; what adjournments or extensions of time to agree to; which documents to demand or not to demand; which other discovery devices to use; what witnesses to depose; what sort of non-dispositive motions to file, and when, etc. Once in a while, I consult with the client on these issues, but for the most part these are my decisions to make.</p>

<p>A BIGLAW litigation associate usually does not make these sorts of decisions.</p>