<p>BFAMT - holly06, sweetclyde and lauren2 have all shared the specifics of their own situations. There are marked similarities: getting good grades and positive feedback during the year, getting cut without advance warning and "out of the blue", and being cut too late in the year to be able to audition at another school or make alternate arrangements at a school for the following school year. In what way is what they are telling this Board, based on their own experiences, incomplete or misleading? Three people reporting essentially the same thing would seem to provide a basis to believe there is truth to what is being said, particularly where the faculty from the school has not disputed the process but has only tried to justify the rather bizarre percentage of cuts each year.</p>
<p>BFAMT....Typically, if I had read one person or even two people's accounts, I would not consider them the definitive case on a school. I would agree. However, in THIS particular case, we not only have holly06, sweetclyde, lauren2 and then Michael forgot to add in samia (and I may be forgetting some others too) who have ALL relayed the same information that we are discussing. MOREOVER, a faculty member from Arizona was kind enough to post on CC in response to this issue on several occasions. While she said that that one year a couple of years ago (was it 2006?) was an anomaly in the numbers that were cut, in fact this year it is being reported that similar HIGH NUMBERS were cut. Are you disputing those FACTS? Then, each person (not just one) who was cut has mentioned receiving good grades and positive feedback from professors and then being cut. Truth? I don't know but I am seeing a pattern on that one thing. Advance warning? The only advance warning is that Arizona employs a cut system but it appears that INDIVIDUALS are not warned ahead of time that they are at risk of being cut and for what reasons or put on any probation but are cut without personal warning. Do you dispute that? The cuts come around May when it is too late to transfer. Do you dispute that? Arizona suggests to its students to explore and act on contingency plans such as auditioning at other programs (at great expense and time) in case they may be cut or else register for other majors in case they may be cut. Are you disputing that? Arizona admits BA students and transfer students into its upper BFA track over it already admitted BFA freshmen and sophs. Do you dispute that? Ms. Bagwell already confirmed it. </p>
<p>These are the issues that give some of us pause that are NOT like what happens at other programs. Therefore, this forum is a place where one may read some facts, as well as read some opinions and some personal experiences/acccounts. THEN, if one is interested in exploring a program further, they most definitely should go to the DIRECT source....the program itself. But this board is one place to read personal accounts and take them for what it is worth. If I read just one account, I don't put much stock into it as it is hard to know if that would be another person's experience if they attend the same school. But when I read at least FOUR accounts that all have a pattern, it does start seeming more valid and I would want more information from the source. In THIS case, we have had a "source", a faculty member, come onto this forum several times to explain Arizona's practices and policies and so that gives some of these issues even more validity. Readers should be cautious but at the same time, I think some of the things I mentioned in my post are factual and not opinions given the body of statements from many people including the school's own faculty. If any of those statements are incorrect or misleading, please inform us.</p>
<p>What is not being debated is that Arizona offers very good training.</p>
<p>I am assuming from your previous post that you, as a counselor, have not checked personally with the university to see if what is posted here is the truth. You seem to be satisfied with opinions of four students and one mother that this is the entire truth about Arizona?</p>
<p>If statements made by parents and students of these four individuals who were disappointed, hurt and angry are what everyone is believing then what a tragedy.</p>
<p>Has anyone thought that maybe people who have been cut are only telling part of their story.</p>
<p>I talked to friends and they said they heard the professor say to look into other schools from the first day of class. "There are no guarantees of advancement and freshmen will be competing against other BA students."</p>
<p>It states in every syllabus "The grade you receive in this class is not a reflection of your professional protenial or your advancement in this program." This is stated because it is a university and there must be written elements to the grading breakdown in each course. An acting course or musical theatre course is not graded entirely on how well you act or sing, but on research, character analysis, play analysis, lyric analysis, exercises and class participation as well. You can receive an "A " in the class without receiving am "A" on your song or monologue presentations because of grade averaging.</p>
<p>MY POINT IS..........
Anyone interested in the University of Arizona or ANY SCHOOL should go to the school's web site, check out the program and if you have any questions contact the department. Most schools will also give you students and alumni to contact. People might want to judge a school by what current students and alums have to say about the program instead of people who were cut and still want to complain about it. The students who are satisfied with the program don't seem to have the time or interest to write on CC.</p>
<p>I also agree that no one's list should be comprised of any school that has not been thoroughly researched by the individual. I also think that reading experiences like those on this forum should be further impetus for that research so that one can determine for themself whether they feel the post has validity or not. I did just that with the school that my D will be attending in the Fall as there were negative posts made about the school. I researched the situation on my own and we made our decision based on our findings. None of that is to say that there wasn't validity to the negative posts but we found that the issues weren't such as to warrant a withdrawal from the program.</p>
<p>I will say that it is a shame that the recent posts on here have become personal as it tends to invalidate the merit of such posts. But, here again, that is something that the individual needs to consider when determining whether they feel a post has validity or not.</p>
<p>Ultimately it is your or your son's or daughter's responsibility to make sure you have done your homework. I don't think there is any post that should be read as gospel. They are experiences by different individuals which should give you the motivation to go out and make your own determination. At the end of the day, you are the only one who can be held accountable for the decisions that you make. So be well informed.</p>
<p>And to the many that post here - your individual experiences, opinions and research are extremely valuable. What is not valuable is any statement such as "stay away from that school," "don't go near this program," etc. (I am paraphrasing but you get the idea). Definitely a suggestion to make sure that you thoroughly check a program or "I am reporting this so that potential students have a heads up to research this school" can be helpful. Broad statements just send those who are trying to figure out this tough process on an emotional roller coaster ride that isn't needed. Just report your experience and let those who come after do their own leg work.</p>
<p>"I talked to friends and they said they heard the professor say to look into other schools from the first day of class. "There are no guarantees of advancement and freshmen will be competing against other BA students."</p>
<p>This statement is frightening and should be duly noted by prospective students and parents of U of A's MT dept. The way that cuts are administered clearly represent the arbitrary negligence of this program. </p>
<p>I admire the restraint here of the above posters, but there is no real debate. This MT program must challenge their methods as remarkably cruel and not in keeping with current philosophies of University conservatory training.</p>
<p>Until U of A chooses to ETHICALLY support all accepted students who meet academic/program standards, educated kids and parents on this forum will not take this program seriously. Plain and simple!</p>
<p>Defending unethical arbitrary cuts is just plain wrong! </p>
<p>and yes I have a close tie with a cut student and their family... and yes, we have personally researched this school directly for ourselves.</p>
<p>But yet there are kids who are taking the program very seriously. </p>
<p>I have no real opinion one way or the other on this program since I have done no research on it and I have no vested interest in it either but it is really hard for me to believe that it is as cruel and arbitrary as is being suggested. What university would be that hardhearted? That's just unfathomable to me. Maybe it's true. maybe the program is heartless and wants nothing more than to advance their own reputation. I live and work in the real world of theatre and entertainment and I haven't come across an entire institution such as described here. individuals - yes. Surely, someone would be keeping practices like this in check. Or maybe I'm naive. Who knows? I know this discussion has certainly piqued my interest to discover the truth.</p>
<p>disneydirector, the posts by Prof. Bagwell, whom I assume we can believe to be providing factual information (other than the contradictory numbers she produced), confirmed the unbelievably high numbers of students who were cut from the program. She also confirmed that the freshman class was indeed competing against B.A. students and transfer applicants when they were going through their evaluations at the end of the year. The fact that decisions were made at such a late date that these kids who were cut had no other option was also confirmed. We've seen posts by longtime members here at CC, both student and parent members, confirm what is being discussed about U of Ariz. There's no reason to disbelieve them. They have no reason to be untruthful about what happened to them. On the other hand, we have had, on more than one occasion, new individuals join to post specifically and solely in positive terms about this program. I know which ones I'd be more apt to look at as presenting a factual interpretation of the situation. </p>
<p>mamalu, I agree with you totally. If that comment by BFAMT was supposed to allay anyone's fears or worries about how students at U of Ariz are treated, it certainly didn't do the trick. If professors are actually advising students on the first day of classes that they should be looking elsewhere, well, I find that unconscionable. That, in and of itself, without everything else we've learned about how students are treated there, would make me feel very comfortable in advising students against including the school on their list. It reminds me of the saying "where there's smoke, there's fire", and in the discussions here, and elsewhere, about the U of Ariz cut process, in addition to many students I've talked to about this, it is very clear that the smoke is thick.</p>
<p>I've been following these discussions about cuts, and I must say that based on the facts that have been confirmed by everyone, there's no chance I will consider this school. I'll bet I'm one of many.</p>
<p>You misunderstand what I said - which is the inherent problem with the internet in general since we can never 'hear' the author's true intentions. I don't disbelieve the facts as they have been laid out. I just have a hard time believing that any institution is as heartless as those facts - as they have been related here - make the school out to be. There has to be more to the story. And, that's why this forum should not be the only barometer an individual uses when deciding on a program - which many of us have said. The fact, Ninnynoddle, that you will discount this program based solely on what you've read here is the exact thing I find scary about CC. There are those who WON'T look beyond what is written here and do their own research. Yes, everyone should be very concerned about UofA's program based on the facts that have been reported here but use that information as a reason to explore further in order to make your own decision. This is a great place for information but it is just that - information. You must do your own work to create the list that is right for you. If I or my D had just gone by what was posted on this site or even information related to her by her coaches, she would be devastated with the options she ultimately had to choose from. They are not what is considered on here to be <em>top</em> programs. We had to do our own work to realize that her options were ones that can lead her towards a very productive career in the future. My mantra to anyone who comes here is to read, read, read and then file the information away as you begin your own fact finding process. UofA has, for all intents and purposes, been shut down as a viable program to anyone who now ventures onto this site IF they choose not to do any further exploration on their own. People come here not knowing where to turn to wade through the jungle of this BFA process and they do get deeply influenced by what is written here. I just think it is irresponsible for anyone to do more than to say - this is our experience, these are the facts as we know them to be, these are things you should research if you are considering this program. And, many are giving much more than an objective presentation of what they know or have heard and that is where I believe things go very off course.</p>
<p>UofA may very well be full of terrible people who want nothing more than their egos stroked and their reputation lifted on high. That is definitely how they are being portrayed here. My suggestion is to just find out for yourself. Let this thread make you curious to discover your own truth. Be suspicious of those who paint with broad strokes - good or bad. That's all I'm saying.</p>
<p>DisneyDirector, the points you make are cogent and well reasoned. It is incumbent upon each student and parents to engage in their own independent investigation and evaluation of schools. This forum is just one of many vehicles by which to do so and there certainly are times when unquestioning reliance on comments here may result in incomplete information or conclusions that are without a fully developed foundation.</p>
<p>What concerns me here, however, is that you have a number of students/parents making certain assertions which not only have a commonality but which appear to be uncontroverted by those who claim to be in a position that would enable them to have knowledge of specific information which would serve to discredit the assertions. Curiously, other than saying "don't believe" what you read from individuals who allegedly have an axe to grind or that there are "2 sides" to every story, no one has offered a fact based refutation of any of the assertions which have been made.</p>
<p>Let's look at some of the specifics:
1. I was cut even though I was getting good grades - The proffered response is that grades aren't everything and may not reflect a student's performance capabilities. However, those who have posted about their experiences have also said that the feedback they received from their professors about their performance and continuation in the program was positive and reassuring. Moreover, in a BFA program, performance plays a major role in a student's grades. If you are not growing satisfactorily as an actor, singer and dancer, if you are not demonstrating that you can learn technique and grow as a performer at a satisfactory level, your grades will reflect it. We are talking about a performance based BFA program, not an academic based BA program.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>I was not informed that I was in jeopardy or that I was cut until it was too late to make plans for another school - The response seems to be that at the very outset, students are told to approach each semester as though it is their last and to put into place contingency plans. This hardly qualifies as a denial and certainly brings into question the educational values and philosophy of a college that is willing to require students to make a commitment of 10's of thousands of dollars while refusing to make a commensurate commitment to retaining and educating those same students. It puts students in an untenable position of on one hand being expected to put forth a total commitment while on the other hand being forced to think and act like they have one foot out the door. It also begs the issue that other than this general "disclaimer", individual students are not given reasonable notice and opportunity to remediate their level of performance.</p></li>
<li><p>I was cut to make room for a BA student who wanted to move into the BFA program or for a transfer from another school - This, if I recall accurately, has in fact been admitted to by school faculty who have posted on this Board.</p></li>
<li><p>The number of students cut each year represent an extraordinary percentage of the freshman and sophomore classes - This has not been denied either nor can it be. Instead, the defense offered is "But look at how well received our showcase is by professionals in the industry." Taken in conjunction with the admission that students are told from day 1 to look for other schools, there is a compelling basis to conclude that the school's operational philosophy is driven by its institutional interest in garnering accolades and enhancing its reputation, not by an interest in committing to the education of students.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>The list could go on. What needs to be realized is that colleges are businesses like any other large corporation with their own institutional priorities and goals. Some colleges do a good job at balancing those interests with what should be the school's mission as an educational institution. Other schools are no more than the educational institution version of an Enron where the individuals running the operation are interested in only "the bottom line", defined here as "ratings", without regard to concepts of ethics, integrity and fairness to students. Unfortubately, it appears that the U of Arizona falls in the latter camp and not the former and nothing that has been posted by its defenders provides a basis to conclude to the contrary.</p>
<p>A terrific and thorough recap of the posts - and because we're on the internet let me clarify that there is no sarcasm in that remark at all. I think it is good to see one post that summarizes the various throughout the pages.</p>
<p>So, with all of this information at hand it is now up to the prospective student and/or parent to further explore these issues to:
a) see if things have changed for the better [a future possibility since it has also been reported here that next year they will have a new dept. head]
b) see if things have remained the same
c) see if things have gotten worse or
d) see if things are not exactly as has been reported.<br>
Then determine if this school makes his/her list or not.</p>
<p>The things we have read here about UofA are absolutely shocking and a consistent report of some of the same issues and confirmation of a few of the practices by one of the professors from the school should definitely make anyone take notice. There is one thing I want to put on the table, though. This is the internet. We don't, in fact, know those people posting these reports (someone may know them but the vast majority of those who come here don't). Even though I don't think anyone is lying there is ALWAYS the possibility that this could be the case OR that the poster's point of view is clouded by other circumstances. Even the statement that a professor said to someone's friend that from day 1 they should be planning other contingencies is more than a third party retelling. So, even if there is the SLIGHTEST chance that this might be a mistatement (since it can't be verified), that should be enough reason for us to do our own research into the situation.</p>
<p>I do want to make sure that there is not a continued perception that I am defending the school or its practices. My point is, and always has been, that one should absorb what is reported here and then do even more research to create your own impression(s).</p>
<p>I think one of the best things that was said in the above post is that it "appears" that UofA falls in the latter camp... Yes, it does appear so. Now, go out, email, call, talk, research and determine for yourself if it is more than an appearance or not.</p>
<p>Really, the only important thing to come out of all this discussion, as far as I am concerned (as a parent concerned about every kid and parent who reads this list) is that those kids and parents be apprised that being cut is a distinct possibility for any student entering the University of Arizona program. Period.
Again, the quality of the graduates that come out of the program is not in question.
(And Disney Director, I don't think anyone here was ever saying or trying to say that the people at Arizona are terrible people. That's hyperbole and doesn't add to the discourse here. Again, the only important thing is that kids who choose to audition for the program have a very, very clear understanding that they could be accepted, earn A's and accolades from professors, and find themselves, at the end of freshman or sophomore year, out of the school.)
My guess is that Arizona will eventually do away with cuts in the same way that schools such as Carnegie Mellon have done away with cuts. Maybe that will happen when they recognize that there is a pool of really talented kids that they won't ever see, simply because those kids have opted not to audition for a program with those kinds of cuts.</p>
<p>Wow!! This thread has been an eye-opener! I have NEVER posted before, so previous comments can not be held against me... I have simply been stalking this forum for the past few months! I have a high-school senior (or at least he will be after two more days of finals!) who will be auditioning for MT programs Fall 2008 and Spring 2009. University of Arizona is one of the programs he is researching, but I believe I will lead him down a different path... many great programs from which to choose!! As NotMamaRose indicated, I don't believe the University of Arizona will be seeing my son in the next years audition process. Thanks to all of you who post on this and other threads. Your information is VERY helpful!</p>
<p>sigh..........</p>
<p>Haha... sorry DisneyDirector. I tried to go back and edit my comment after I wrote it and it wouldn't let me. I wanted to add that of course, no matter what I think, the decision is ultimately up to my S. If he has a strong interest in University of Arizona, (honestly, we are still in the fact-finding stages) I will let him make the decision on whether to pursue, but urge him to ask a lot of questions. As a parent, the info. here has been an eye-opener to carefully research the question of "cuts", the process by which cuts are made and the criteria on which cuts are based. Not only for this university, but for all! </p>
<p>And don't worry... I've already shown this thread to my S and he doesn't see it in the same way I do. He commented that the best of the best will be the last ones standing and he would be super proud to be one of those final few! I guess protective mothers don't see it the same way...</p>
<p>Thanks Disney Director. Your comments are right on the money. Living in Tucson and having worked with some of the BFA and BA students, I can tell you that there are many different opinions about the MT and the BFA Acting program. Reading the comments in this forum is not the end all. My son is starting in the program this fall, fully aware of the cuts. Like Tapperboymom said about her son, cuts don't scare him. If you are unsure what the truth is, get more information. Don't base your opinions on others comments.</p>
<p>Hi everyone. I have read this site for several years and never felt compelled to write on it until now. I am a 2008 graduate from the University of Arizona's Musical Theatre program. I think it is very commendable that you parents are concerned for your future or current students and their pride and education. That being said, they are SMARTER THAN YOU THINK, they are going to find out what school is the best school for them. </p>
<p>The "cut" process is daunting and scary, yes, that goes without saying, but it seems as though very few people have looked at the flipside of the coin. Imagine the program didn't cut. Do you want your hard earned money, and your child's valuable time to be spent trying to teach a student concepts that they simply cannot grasp. Do you want your child's time being able to work in front of the teacher spent on a student who is not excelling at the same rate as everyone else in the class? So, then you ask, why did they accept that student into the program? The answer is because they saw potential! Potential, however, unfortunately does not always come to fruition as ability. Not to say your child isn't talented, but the stanislovski based training may not be what feeds their particular talent. </p>
<p>Next, what if it is your child that gets cut? Would you rather them be kept in a program where they are not going to be utilized in mainstage productions and more importantly, remembering this is an education setting, do you want them to continue to fall further and further behind essentially wasting their time, their classmates time, and your hard earned money?</p>
<p>I am one of the infamous students who came back in the 2006 school year which is part of why so many students happened to be cut that year. But, more than more students in class than expected, there was a lot of potential that year that did not blossom, in this program. They are looking out for your student as well as for the good of the company, please remember that fact.</p>
<p>There is more to a program to think about than the cut process as well. Piece of advice....ask yourself what kind of actor you want to be? What do you want your emphasis to be in? If you want to be the best actor possible it is emparitive you go to a school where the musical theatre program is based out of the acting school. If dancing is a huge emphasis for you, the UA is probably not the school for you, because many of the advanced dance classes conflict with the acting classes which make them not available for you to take. If you want to be a pop star, UA may not be the place for you, as with all of our training we are classicly based, including in our vocal training. (That doesnt mean we dont have belters, or work on belts, but the focus of your vocal training comes from a classical place, and then modified for modern musical theatre sound.) If you want to be a triple threat, i absolutely suggest the UA. The acting training is impecable, the teachers are experienced both as professional actors themselves and as educators, and the community support is phenominal.</p>
<p>Lastly, VISIT! Sit in on classes, see a production, ask current or past students, remember sometimes the reward is only as big as the risk! Also remember people tend to speak out a lot more if they are disgruntled or angry then when they are satisfied and content. Probably, because most of us are busy working as actors, go class of 2008! I hope this helps prospective students and parents with some of their questions. Parents, you i whole heartedly believe you are robbing your students if you scratch UA off your list because of the cut process, that is our business, have confidence in your childs ability and work ethic, and the rest will all fall into place.
Jeff</p>