2010 Countdown - discussion and base assignments

Colleges and Universities A-Z Air Force Academy - Colorado Springs
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<p>thanks pima, and sry for the mix-up :wink: i have joked with a few friends that they’ll get FAIP and be my instructor. i also know i’ll be flying with the tail end of 2011’s class, which will be kind of weird, especially getting to a base and having 2011ers having more experience than me. but such is the military: they may be my commander some day!</p>

<p>as for my flying, that’s obviously going to have to take time to tell. i did get a solo flight last fall in a Diamond DA-40 through powered flight, so i know i’m not entirely inept. guess we’ll see what He has in store!</p>

42

<p>Are you kidding?! I’m gonna have Captain by the time I begin, will probably have IPs from 2011, and my class will have 2013 in it (current 4 digs!).</p>

43

<p>

This is exactly why the Navy all but prohibits grad school immediately following graduation from USNA. The only official program, Voluntary Graduate Education Program, VGEP for you Air Force types who cannot talk without moving your hands and using acronyms, only involves 20 or so individuals annually and must be completed by the end of the fall semester following graduation from USNA.</p>

<p>Consequently, those who get the extended programs are only the truly outstanding; the Rhodes, Fulbrights, etc., and they often subsequently find themselves on somewhat of an ‘alternate’ career path. Never knew one that decided to follow aviation, for example, due exactly to the reasons mentioned above.</p>

44

<p>Well in the AF that is just not true.</p>

<p>Col Mike Goode who was on the space shuttle last August, did not get to FTU until he was a pinned on Capt. He did one operational tour with the 77th FS and was picked up for test school immediately after that.</p>

<p>Col. Frank Rossi did AFIT and he even made it all the way to Wink King of a FW. </p>

<p>Gen. Mark Graper also went to STAR (sim to AFIT) as a lt. He was so BPZ that he had to be placed in a holding pattern for 4 yrs, because he was too young to pin on General. (He made Col in 16 yrs). He was our 90th FS commander for the F-15E</p>

<p>Col. Ken Byrd also did grad straight out of the AFA. He went onto be the Vice Wing for Mt Home AFB. (F-15E flies there).</p>

<p>I am sure I could add more, but as you can see it is common to also make it in the fighter community even if you come in late. The point is now only were these guys smart academically, but they were also excellent aviators. Yes, some will track differently, but it is more based on their flying skills than the delay of entering UPT. If you are just avg than you won’t continue down that path, but if you are above avg than the door has not shut on you making WIC or Test.</p>

<p>It is not a pick one…grad or UPT. The reason these guys also all made it to their level is they had one other thing in common. BPZ. BPZ is really the make or break issue to decide if you will get a Wing. How do you get BPZ? You have to a career from start to finish that separates you from the pack. As stated earlier your PRF will only have 9 lines for your entire career. When you go up for O4 one of those lines is going to say something akin to selected for fellowship directly out of the AFA. Now if you do great at UPT, the next line is going to say DG out of UPT, and it is just going to continue on. If you are fortunate you will go to a sister school in residence, and now you can start to see how it starts tallying up.</p>

<p>The one problem that you need to be careful of is gate months. This is true for everyone going to UPT, but more so for the people who come in later. You must fly X amount of months to maintain flight pay. The reason this can be an issue for them is they will come up for an O4 position with less months, and if they accept an O4 school in residence that eats into the gate month requirement. Back in Bullet’s day the AF was very cognizant of this, and if you made your first gate they would send you joint right after school, which hurts because now you are 4 yrs out of the cockpit. If you didn’t meet your gate they sent you back operationally and most of them because they came with school in residence slid in as the presumptive next DO, which means they than became CC, that allowed them to be picked up for O5 school, which then brought them back in the wing as Wing Deputy or Wing Asst. Deputy. See the pattern again?</p>

45

<p>

Apparently eagle’s AOC has perhaps different anecdotal evidence, but more likely statistical overall data, than you. Again:

I am well aware that not all miltary branches are the same, but apparently, in this case, he feels much the same as that of the official Navy policy makers.</p>

46

<p>As I stated it also can be a situation that for some it can hurt them. However, it should never be seen as a “my flying career is over if I do this” before the career ever started.</p>

<p>For example, I think if a cadet said my ultimate goal is to fly Thunderbirds, than I would 100% agree with him, because they would not be able to get competitive enough credentials at the point needed to join the Thunderbirds. However, if the cadet said I want to be a Wing King/Queen. Than I think that if you look at many of the fighter commanders currently many of them have that in common.</p>

<p>I look at it this way, people will give you all of their “War stories”, (negative connotation —not actual war), but you should take it with a grain of salt, because for every war story out there, there is a success story. It is your option to listen to both sides and make your decision that is good for your life.</p>

<p>Bullet decided to jump out of perfectly good airplanes with the 82nd. People told him his flying career was over, his career was over, because they knew someone that did it and yadda yadda yadda. Had he not stepped out he would have been like the other F111 fliers, spending the rest of their flying career at Canon NM or coming into the strike much later on. Because he didn’t listen to them, he got into the Strike Eagle @5 yrs earlier, because he was an ALO with the 82nd for Haiti he also became USAF ALO of the yr. That award was on his PRF, which also helped get PME. Had he not gone to the 82nd it is highly doubtful that he would have been selected for sister school with the Army. That sister school got him a plum job at the Pentagon working Jt Requirements for Fighters, which he was able to use to get him back into the cockpit as a LTC after 4 yrs. That is a rarity in the AF to return that late in life to fighters, especially for someone who had made their gates, but had yet to do a remote. He was so well respected in that job, he was personally recruited by the #3 defense contractor before he was eligible to retire. When he hit the retirement button (you hit it 1 yr before you actually separate) he already had a job, while others had yet to start interviewing.</p>

<p>That jump ALO which everyone said he was crazy and ruin his career not only gave him a better career, but because of that he had altered his timing. The AF never had the chance to send him REMOTE. In today’s AF that is unheard of. Today officer’s know they will be hit with a remote and now plan it into their career.</p>

<p>Like I said, for every war story of you need to rethink what you are doing there is a success story out there.</p>

47

<p>

If it was indeed as you stated, he probably had to dance around a whole lot of pesky old government regulations to pull that one off.</p>

48

<p>There were no regulations regarding interviewing or accepting jobs before actually retiring. Sometimes, there is the regulation that you cannot double dip, however, all that means is you can’t start until you have finished your terminal leave. In his case he had his offer, including benefits, signed and sealed months before he left, but because of his position in the AF and his contracting position he was one of those that could not double dip, also known as the competition clause. I do know that Bullet did have to receive a letter from the Wing King, but it was just a formality and that paper was to give him permissive TDY to job hunt. His boss the Wing DO was well aware of the fact that Bullet actually had the job, and needed the permissive TDY to go and sign the contract with L-3. His retirement date had been set so it wasn’t an issue. There were no whole lot of pesky old govt regulations. </p>

<p>Our friend who went govt double dipped, but his new job had no connection to his past job and it was not seen as a competition clause.</p>

<p>Everyone I knew that went onto be a busdriver in the sky started training with the airlines while they were on leave. They too double dipped for months. One friend started training in March and did not officially retire until June 1st.</p>

<p>I think retirement now is probably different than when you retired. If there were those pesky govt regs., than Lockheed, SAIC, Rand, Raytheon etc would not go to the base job fairs because it would be waste of time since the majority of military members attending are still AD, they just know that they are short.</p>

<p>I also know that the 7 guys who retired around the same time frame who stayed at our last base all became SIM instructors for Lockheed and they had their retirement ceremony on Friday and started work on Monday while still on leave.</p>

<p>For the young cadets. You put in your retirement papers about 1 yr out. At that point if you are like everyone else, you will save everyday of leave, so you can have 90 days to retire out on. Some will sell their leave back, some will just sit at home and unwind, some will double dip. You get 90 because from Oct 1 to Sept 30 you can carry 60 days, come Sept 30th if you didn’t use it you will lose it. Thus, most people will carry the 60 over and by summer time they will then have approximately 90.</p>

<p>If you have a good commander they will also allow you permissive TDY to go house hunting or job hunting. To you that means they won’t charge you leave, and you get to hold onto it.</p>

<p>Bullet had originally intended to retire in June, and then double dip, however when we found out about the competition clause he backed it up to August, sold back leave and took time off. His official ceremony was August. His official retirement date was Sept 30th. He actually was allowed to start work in the end of September before the actual date because it was considered training. He was not allowed in the Vault until Oct 1.</p>

49

<p>One other thing trying to get this back on track with assignments straight out. When you go to UPT and get your airframe assignment remember that you will have another assignment night at the FTU.</p>

<p>Too many times people don’t think about the place they want from an operational standpoint. They think about it from that place is better than the other bases I can chose from. You need to think about the big picture and see it from an operational standpoint. So many F-15E fliers always wanted AK, however, the 90th actually became a place that they should not have gone to at a certain point. You don’t want to go to that dream base if they are converting. The reason why is that you will pcs again while the others who went to SJAFB have established themselves. For example they get crappy old Seymour, but go to the Chiefs, while you get beautiful AK. While you enjoy flying over Denali they are flying over Afghanistan. 2 yrs later you now are sent to crappy old Seymour, and because you are an IP, they put you in the Lancers (FTU), for the next 3 yrs. 5 yrs in operationally and you have yet to have a combat sortie. The guy who got crappy old Seymour did 2 rotations in the sandbox, has an air combat medal, led 4 ships in combat because he too is an IP. Now for him at 3 yrs operationally he has more operational experience and looks better on paper for WIC than you do, all because you took Elmendorf at the wrong time.</p>

<p>This too will play a part of being hit with a remote. Everytime you go to the sandbox that lowers you from being hot for a remote. They will always try not to give concurrent overseas. That means from AK you were safe for getting hit, however, now you have 3 yrs where you were not deployed overseas while they did deploy, your ahead of them now for being hit. It is possible that AFPC will now hit you with a remote. Now you will have 6 yrs in and still no combat time. Worst yet, you are married and have a 2 yo at home that you must say goodby to for a yr.</p>

<p>I know it sounds so far a way, but with every decision you make remember you need to think what might happen as a follow on. I knew people who purposedly took Lakenheath after Elmendorf. The reason why was they were trying to escape the remote for as long as they could. By taking concurrent overseas they knew they had 9-10 yrs without a remote (3 in AK, 3 in UK and 3-4 stateside) because the rule is they would not force a remote from overseas bases. They then hoped that they would make school and that would prolong it, however, for those that didn’t they also accepted that they would do the remote after 4 yrs and have a follow on to the same base, in essence they homesteaded for 9 yrs at SJAFB. I know of 2 families that did this, their children arrived as 5 yr olds and never moved again. The Dads did 2 remotes and they stayed there for a total of 14 yrs. In his entire career they were stationed at 2 bases, that was it, 1x in UK and the rest at SJAFB. CRAZY, but it is true!<br>
Remember I am not saying 3 yrs in AD, but 3 yrs operationally flying, thus AFIT is not the player here.</p>

<p>One thing is others will also tell you being a FAIP will kill your career, that isn’t true either. I know many O6’s that were FAIPs and as an O6 that typically means you were a squadron commander somewhere in your career.</p>

50

<p>i would like to go back and address that conversation with my AOC, as i feel it’s given the wrong impression.</p>

<p>my AOC was not pressuring me one way or another. he wanted to make sure i fully understood the “consequences” of going directly to grad school since i told him that most people i had talked to regarding the situation were teachers who felt strongly i should take the slot. I basically invited him to play devil’s advocate because i felt i needed to see strong views from both sides. he actually did bring up specifically the thunderbird idea. as a caveat to everything he said, he did also mention that going to grad school by no means eliminated me from anything, it just could make some situations more difficult.</p>

<p>when i told him that i had accepted my AFIT slot, he was more than supportive. the fact that i would have a Master’s in residence and not have to worry about balancing work, a family, and school later down the road would help. While it may or may not have been the choice he’d make if he were me, he told me he thinks i went about my decision making the right way and that i therefore made the right choice.</p>

<p>and as a sidenote to all of this, my start date for training would not have been until march 2011. so i am now graduating AFIT the same week i would have graduated ENJJPT, which puts me at just over a year behind where i would have been. i have classmates you will still be in UPT after i graduate AFIT, and they’re going straight to UPT.</p>

<p>bottom line, i made the choice that was right for me after talking with teachers, flyers, recent grads, family, and prayer. i honestly believe if i have the talent to get fighters and TPS and the such, it will still happen. if not, it wouldn’t have happened anyway. i can’t predict or try to imagine what’s going to happen because things change every day. all i can do is stick behind my decision and do the best i can at AFIT and then the best i can at ENJJPT</p>

51

<p>You are 1000% correct eagle. If you have the talent you will get just as far in the flying world and that is why I used the examples that I did. Each and everyone of them entered at what was deemed “late”, yet look at them now. They surpassed their classmates even at an early point. Mike was picked up for TPS with only 1 op tour, (3 yrs), he was an O3 and not even up for O4. He made NASA from TPS as a freshly minted O4. How many AF officers who graduated DG as a 1st LT can say they were on a Space Shuttle? Very Very Few. Mike Goode btw was not a DG nor was he number 1 in FTU, but he had timing and was a good stick. </p>

<p>Timing too is a key component. Sometimes you have control, and sometimes you are caught holding the short stick. You need to accept that not everything is in your control…very hard for those TYPE A personalities, but it is true.</p>

<p>You have the right mindset, the big picture is more important sometimes then the little glimpse.</p>

<p>Good luck, and I am sure in 2030 You will have a bird on your shoulder! ;)</p>

52

<p>

And he is 100% correct. “It …… ** could ** make some situations more difficult” and as Pima has stated, some things are out of your control.</p>

<p>War stories and anecdotal examples aside, one has to apply both human nature and common sense to the situation. Being an aviator is much much more than being a good “stick”. At each level of your flying career, there will be multiple milestones, all based either directly or indirectly on hours in the cockpit. Aircraft commander, mission commander, section lead, division lead, standardization, instructor, etc etc. Not sure how the AF evaluation system works but probably it involves a favorable comparison to your peers in order to rise to the top and that flight aptitude is part of the evaluation. How can you compare favorably when you are only able to fly wing to your peer’s section lead, or even division, lead; copilot to your peer’s aircraft commander. Some evaluators may see your alternate path as noble and disregard the difference in experience levels, some may ignore it and do an apples-to-apples evaluation, and some may actually see it as misplaced priorities. Human nature. You have no way of controlling it. My guess would be that if there were enough to form a statistical sample, promotions to O-4 and especially O-5 might be more difficult, but by O-6, it may actually prove beneficial. I will acknowledge that an alternate career path will bring more maturity to both flight training and the initial operational tour. But also, with it, more is expected.</p>

<p>My anecdotal experience, while a different service and different reasons, bear somewhat on my opinions and are somewhat relevant. Being young and dumb and not wanting to miss Vietnam, I spent a year with SpecWarfare on the Cambodian border prior to completing flight training. O-3 was 36 months from commissioning. I played catchup all the way to O-5. Difficult but not impossible. My chest full of medals and ribbons was the equivalent of the sheepskin you will have hanging on your office wall and, I am sure, bode me well. And then I got to go back to Vietnam again as an aviator.</p>

<p>The Navy is somewhat different with, among other things, apparently, if Pima is correct, flying billets. The Navy has three mandatory sea duty billets crammed into the career path prior to screening for command at the early O-5 level. It is not unusual to be a senior O-5 or even an O-6 prior to stepping out of the cockpit. Grad school acomplished part time in the evening while on shore duty. Warfare specialty has to be the primary focus to meet these milestones. I have been involved in the Admissions process for over 15 years and have told innumerable candidates that if their flight dreams came to fruitation that it was extremely important that they take the first available class to P’cola and push to get their wings as rapidly as possible. One was the youngest fighter pilot in the Navy two years running. Others looked around at graduation and realized that all the other Academy grads there that day had graduated from the Academy a year prior to them. Many have thanked me. None have told me I was full of baloney.</p>

<p>Different service, different priorities. Many things unique but some things common.</p>

<p>Good luck. I am sure you will succeed, no matter what your goals. Your Academy background has prepared you for this.</p>

53

<p>

</p>

<p>Outstanding piece of wisdom here, and probably the best thing said on this thread. Eagle, welcome to the AF, keep that perspective and you will do well.</p>

<p>It really comes down to “do what is best for YOU, and give it your best. The rest should fall into place after that”. </p>

<p>There really is no guaranteed “path” that will get you to the highest ranks of the military, and quite frankly, its something you shouldn’t be spending too many brain-bytes on right now worrying over. Just do your job to the best of your ability, and ALWAYS strive to be the best you can at it – do this, and your bosses will be the ones spending THEIR brain-bytes worrying about the next steps in your career for you.</p>

<p>Mombee is correct; EVERYONE’s career is anecdotal in how they got there. There are just too many factors involved to set a “standard career path to a Star on your shoulder”. From doing the RIGHT job, to knowing the RIGHT people, to being at the RIGHT place at the RIGHT time, to acting the RIGHT way, and even to having the RIGHT amount of luck. Each of the leaders in the military took a slightly different path, and each of the factors above played a part in different measures in ensuring they got to where they are now.</p>

<p>AFIT before UPT? Of course, it has its plusses and minuses, discussed here ad nausem. It up to YOU to measure these factors and decide what is best for you. The fun part is NOT knowing where that path will take you, and still finding happiness that is best for you no matter where that road takes you.</p>

<p>From the quote above, Eagle, I KNOW you’ll do well in the path you’ve chosen. Good luck throughout your career.</p>

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<p>You do know that if we were all analytic, our kitchens would be overfilled with charts and graphs so that not only could we find the optimum safest time to travel to the corner store for milk but avoid that 9763rd trip which would statistically prove fatal. However, if we relied solely on anecdotal information, aware of all the fatal accidents on our nation’s highways, we would either starve to death or be required to depend on under-30 yr old Navy or AF jet jocks who believe they are invincible and that the odds do not apply to them, to go get our milk for us.</p>

55

<p>speaking of Mike Goode… i don’t really remember him very well but i remember playing with his sons Brian and Jason when our dads went through TPS in the same class. Our family got invited to watch that shuttle launch, but sadly couldn’t make it.</p>

<p>thanks everyone for the great discussion on here. Not so sure about those birds in 2030, but i guess i’m not really looking that far down the road one way or another, so we’ll see how everything shakes out. now for LUKE more days of undergraduate education!</p>

56

<p>Eagle, I love the fact that you are living here and now with the right amount of attention being placed on your future.</p>

<p>I think for cadets and parents of cadets it is important to absorb what eagle has stated through these pages.</p>

<p>Every military member at one time or another, and sometimes multiple times, will have to sit down and address which way they should go at the fork in the road. This is not about UPT at Columbus or Laughlin or 15 or 16. This is about a decision that directly will change their future and what is needed to obtain the entire dream.</p>

<p>I would say to cadets that when you take your summer tours, use the time wisely to search out someone there that has lived through what you want to attain. That might be Flight Surgeon. WIC, TPS, PME in residence. They love to talk about themselves, give opinions and war stories of how they got to where they are at currently. Friday night at the squadron hooch playing 4,5,6 is the time you will get unfiltered opinions. Use that wisely. </p>

<p>Actually LUKE is nothing like undergrad, it is more like BCT. You will show up thinking you are the best of the best and they can do no harm to you. Within hours your arse is sitting in a room questioning your abilities. All of the sudden you are crap, and that ring knocker means squat! Think about it, did anyone at the academy care that a cadet was the Valedictorian or Captain of the state football championship team? NO! Did they laugh at the C4C who said they were the JROTC cadet commander when that cadet thought they knew it all? Don’t the majority of you say don’t brag about CAP? The same should be stated to you if you brag about soaring. Hold onto how you processed mentally getting through BCT and C4C because that will help.</p>

<p>Before you open your mouth, make sure you speak wisely. Think about that C4C defending his position at BCT and you all laughing at him at the end of the night. You don’t want to be them!</p>

<p>The one commonality I have seen with true leaders is they have the perfect blend. They are like many on this site. They listen to others, but make the final decision. They are not quick to judge. They have an attitude, but yet they have humanity. They have a goal, but accept that the competition is stiff. They look towards the future from a big pic so they are one step ahead, regardless if others think they are wrong. In other words they are risk takers, but have made a conscious decision on the rate of return they want.</p>

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<p>LUKE = class of 2010 exemplar. So, when we say we have “LUKE days” we mean 10 days.</p>

58

<p>well, classes are done, and no finals! i got to jump in the fountain yesterday. really cold, but it still felt GREAT! hard to believe we’re so close to the end.</p>

59

<p>Hello all - Congratulations! You made it through and have such bright futures ahead. My son is attending the summer seminar in a couple of weeks and I was wondering if anyone had some advice for him. Also, what are his chances of being accepted (after attending SS), and is the physical fitness test conducted at SS? Thanks so much - and thank you all for your service to our country.</p>

60

<p>My advice is ask as many questions as possible and think about what it would be like to come here. As far as chances, no one can say for sure. Not everyone that gets into SS gets into the academy but I would say the majority do. They do take the CFA at SS, but it does not count (most do much worse because of the altitude) it is more for practice.</p>