The issue with MIT (and Stanford for that matter) is that much of the teaching is done by graduate students. They don’t teach because they are good at it. They teach because they have to. No teaching qualifications are required and many of them have poor English skills. Cal Tech is the same with the added bonus of a curriculum that is so dense and fast that the stress level can be unbearable. Everyone did say that they felt their respective institution had a world class graduate program. Compare that to a program like Rose Hulman, Harvey Mudd, Olin or Cal Poly where they don’t offer doctoral programs and you’ll find the UG experience to be different. In our family’s opinion, better. Certainly not all will concur.
Teaching by graduate students will be present at any institution that has graduate students. Typically, it is the introductory courses where a professor will provide a lecture to large groups and grad students will teach smaller subdivided groups. The upper division courses are generally taught by professors.
Many of the professors at research institutions are excellent teachers because they want to communicate their knowledge and learning to others. They just have more responsibilities to keep their research going, and so cannot devote as much time to undergrads.
Caltech is very intense, and would appeal to the student who wants to learn as quickly as he/she can to move to the next level. The student should really look closely to see if that is what they want from the undergrad experience.
There are plenty of engineering schools which have graduate programs and research but which value teaching as well. Yes graduate students teach but usually only laboratory portions of introductory courses and possibly discussion sections. Faculty members are responsible for the overall course and generally, only faculty teach advanced courses.
Another important thing to look into is whether academic advisors are faculty or professional staff. Having a faculty member be the academic advisor can be frustrating because of limited availability but the relationship you can build with a faculty member and the advice you can get is priceless.
“Teaching by graduate students will be present at any institution that has graduate students.” - True. Sometimes it is an issue, and sometimes not. My STEM school had grad students teaching recitations (review sessions, for the lectures taught by profs). Some had heavy accents, but it was OK for our math/science purposes. Also grad students taught a few upperclassmen classes. The ones I had were excellent and had great English skills.
There are no grad students teaching at undergrad-only STEM school. That’s the environment DS prefers, and he has done very well going that route. One of the tradeoffs is limited choices of research.
Good feedback. I was so crushed after reading about GT and mention of suicide rates and depression but I haven’t investigated those claims yet. I totally agree with you. My D has visited all the schools now. Met professors, sat in on classes. One top school even paid to fly him out there and get an in depth look. He’s gone below the surface in his research. Unfortunately I haven’t been to them all…so yes that worries me.
I’ll be sure to ask him about some if the schools mentioned above. I bet there are tons of good engineering programs out there. I just need to make sure if his reasons and why he would choose one over the other. Prestige had better not be it. That’s shallow that’s like all the kids applying to ALL the Ivies. They are so different…
DS/DD may give a reason for liking a particular program, but it may not be the whole reason. Sometimes they filter to say what they think a parent or adult would understand as ‘acceptable’ reason. Sometimes if you get the student talking enough you may be able to figure it out - esp if you saw everything they saw on a visit, or were able to have them tell about all their positive and negative reactions. Sometimes students don’t understand things fully or may misinterpret information.
@eyemgh
My son is not a top applicant but has done very well in the three PLTW courses he has had so far in HS. With a 33 on the ACT he may be attractive to some lower tier schools. No need for merit or financial aid, but believe colleges where the focus is on undergraduate education will help ensure his success. Do you have a list of colleges you’s recommend? I know about Rose Hulman’s rank and reputation but am trying to craft a spring break visit trip so am looking for more ideas.
@msd228, this certainly is not an exhaustive list, but the schools listed made our son’s exploratory list. Note, some do offer PhD, but their emphasis is on undergrads. He didn’t ultimately apply to all of them, because he had additional criteria he was using.
Harvey Mudd
Cal Poly
Univ of Wyoming
Colorado State
Utah
Case Western
Missouri S&T
Rose Hulman
Univ of Wisconsin
Olin
WPI
RPI
Lehigh
There are lots of good state flagships. Wyoming, CSU and Utah are included because of their location and their cost.
Thank you @eyemgh. I have only read the rankings in USNWR for schools with no PhD but hoped that some big ten schools might have an undergrad focus. He has Wisconsin at the top of his list so far based on a campus visit, but I have no idea how to assess whether or not he will get good instruction. May I ask how you arrived at this list (other than the three mentioned that I’m guessing are geographically close)?
Here’s a neat list … which we didn’t see until after DS was in college. Many we “discovered” on our own and visited. IDH and I graduated from one of them. . http://www.theaitu.org/members.html
Honestly, msd228, none of the Big 10 schools really have an undergrad focus. That is the nature of the large state university. If he is interested in engineering in the Midwest and will look at smaller schools, Michigan Tech is worth a look. If you are in-state for Wisconsin (couldn’t tell), the U of Minnesota is certainly worth visiting, since reciprocity means he would get in-state tuition (and their OOS tuition is pretty reasonable, too).
So I’m not a parent just a student at Texas (not sure I would consider Cockrell second tier but no biggie) Daughter of retired 2 Star so have the military connection. I actually can’t figure out the issue. Son is apparently a great student. If you can afford MIT or Stanford go for it. If not GT is covered 100% by GI bill. Sounds like you are worrying out this much more than your son. My parents laid out the finances to me and my brother and said go for it. They were only involved in the process in support of rolls. I personally would quit looking at theses boards and let him make his decision once you tell him how much money is available. I will tell you that when I filled out my FAFSA for the first time it was pretty depressing seeing a crazy high EFC, My Dad said that was the penalty for saving when I told him about it. Good luck, get your son involved, make him do the FAFSA, let him work the GI Bill cert of eligibility. I know I learned a lot and it shaped both me and my brothers decisions.
@msd228, I read the book below and liked lots of what it included. Several of the contributors are from Madison and they speak to some of what they are doing there. It sounds innovative. Remember, a program can be big and have doctoral programs and still put a high priority on the quality of undergraduate teaching.
http://www.glpbooks.com/titles/engineering-your-future-project-based-hs.html
:Your dad doesn’t know much about the FAFSA calculation or how schools allocate need based aid, then… also, I assume the OP knows that the net price calculators are where she should be looking for costs for specific schools, not the FAFSA EFC.
Oh don’t go there with the NPCs…most of them were dead wrong, as they only counted income and not assets. Luckily I was able to figure out the FAFSA forecaster and a nice person on CC sent a spreadsheet that shows immediate changes to the end game FAFSA as you change the different amounts…that was a lifesaver and was most helpful. I get it now. Didn’t get it back then though.
Hmm, every one we filled out asked for assets. Maybe just different schools. Or maybe you have some complexity that makes them inaccurate (there are some).
Yes off the top of my head CU Boulder, Co School of Mines…let’s see GT…the list goes on of schools that had a VERY simple calculator on there that took all of two seconds to fill out. Someone reminded me it is probably because they don’t give much aid out to begin with…who knows…I’m not smart enough to try to figure it out…was just very naive in filling them out and talking to people who made the same income as my husband…so I dumbly assumed we’d be in line with them…not realizing assets come into play of course too. But we’ve regrouped and understand now.
intparent,
You make me laugh, in a couple of ways. First off the OP was addressing the FAFSA EFC so that is what I was referencing. Actually just trying to show empathy for the astronomical EFC’s some middle class family’s are facing. If you would like to discuss NPC’s I am equally comfortable discussing the pitfalls and benefits of using them. As far as the FAFSA goes… I’m not really sure what you were getting at. I think it is safe to say that if you have assets (college savings in this case) your EFC will be substantially higher than if you don’t have any. The same can be said for other assets and income. How the college chooses to use the EFC is a separate issue and university dependent. Finally as far as my Dad is concerned, I actually have know ideas if he knows all of the intricacies of the FAFSA computation. I don’t think he has ever filled one out, but he watched over my shoulder as I changed my college savings and family assets from the actual $ amount to a lesser amount (just to see the effect) and the EFC decreased considerably. At any rate it sounds like the OP’s son has a great family support network in place (way to go Mom) as well has having some wonderful Universities to choose from. I know it is a stressful time I was totally freaking out trying to figure it all out.
Back when we were looking at FAFSA and CSS about 6 years ago (before there were so many nifty NPC), it seemed like income was the major driver. High income families didn’t qualify for much FA, regardless of savings. In general terms, savings were “taxed” about 5% per college year, but 401K money was exempt from the formulas.
I dunno; last year we used NPC’s for several public and private colleges and universities and found them to be incredibly accurate. Our income the previous few years had been just above or just below six figures (my husband had a major health crisis in 2012 and didn’t work for two years). We have modest savings and no 529s, but the only debt we carry is the last few years on a 15-year mortgage on our home, where we (obviously) have significant equity. Two dependent children. Our EFC was full pay at all the publics; the privates ranged from $25k-$30k at the most selective schools (Top 25 in the US News rankings) to $45k at the next tier down (#25-50).