<p>I know there's been a lot of discussion on how necessary it is to take math all 4 years of high school, but I haven't found any recent discussion that addresses our situation. My daughter is having a harder and harder time with math. She got straight A's in middle school, and as a matter of course was assigned to geometry in 9th grade. It's been all downhill ever since, to the point where she barely scraped by with a C in her last semester of Algebra II this spring, even with a tutor. Next year she'll be taking pre-calculus as a junior, and is already dreading it. Pre-calculus is the highest level non-AP math class offered at our high school, and she really, really doesn't want to an AP math class her senior year.</p>
<p>Had these troubles started showing up earlier, we would have been fine with her slowing down a bit and taking Algebra I in 9th grade, but there's not much we can do about it now, other than re-taking Algebra II, which is another thing D really, really doesn't want to do. Other than math, D is an excellent student, particularly in English, history and music. </p>
<p>We've been looking at admission requirements for colleges around the country that D may be interested in. Most require 3 years of math (although many recommend 4), but there are some that require 4. However, they usually specify the coursework should go up to and include pre-calculus (just as the ones that require 3 years ask for math through Algebra 2). Indiana University, for instance, requires 7 semesters, including "1 semester of trigonometry, pre-calculus, or calculus." </p>
<p>So here's my question: Given the circumstances, will 3 years of math be enough? Has D fulfilled the spirit, if not the letter, of, say, IU's requirements? She's not looking to apply to the "elite" schools, which I realize want 4 years of everything (and don't much like C's on the transcript). I'm referring to many excellent schools that an A-/B+ student can get into; will this make a difference in what she can or should take her senior year?</p>
<p>D has also had problems in her math courses. We have pushed for her to be in “advanced” sections, and she has had Advanced Geometry, Advanced Algebra/Trig, and Advanced PreCalc. Next year she is going to take Statistics, which seems to be the easiest math course still available. We’ve conceded defeat in any attempt to get her through AP Calculus. </p>
<p>Would it be an option for your D to take statistics senior year?</p>
<p>I’m currently a rising senior so I may not be the most qualified person to answer your question, but I think she should push through and finish precalc next year. Precalc is really the highest math anyone needs to know that won’t be a STEM related field. As anecdotal evidence, I know many competitive students who stopped taking math and science after precalc and physics respectively, and many of them ended up at solid state flagships like Indiana, OSU, and Pitt.</p>
<p>Your D may find precalc easy, as it essentially is a review of everything (Alg, Geo, and Trig) and doesn’t cover much new material.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, it is highly unlikely that high school will be the last time your D takes a math course, so its better to face it now than later.</p>
<p>I agree with xaniamom. Statistics (regular or AP) can be a more manageable math course for someone who isn’t mathematically-inclined but would like to continue to take math courses after Precalculus.</p>
<p>However, cc123sb is also right. If she doesn’t tackle calculus in high school, just remember that she will have to go through it in college. Even non-STEM students are usually required to take at least basic calculus. Not to mention that if she skips a year between precalculus and calculus, she’s probably going to be a little bit rusty.</p>
<p>Not necessarily. Humanities and arts students often have no math requirement, and social studies majors (other than economics and business) may need just a non-calculus-based statistics course, if the college does not require calculus for everyone. Economics, business, and biology majors typically need a year of calculus; economics majors intending to go to graduate school in economics, as well as math, statistics, physics, chemistry, computer science, and engineering majors, need additional math beyond freshman calculus.</p>
<p>However, it is generally a good idea for a college bound student to complete precalculus (which is generally consider the “fourth year of high school math” in the US), in case s/he may actually need calculus or statistics (and at least a basic knowledge of statistics is useful in many contexts). Having completed precalculus means not having the take any remedial math in college in order to take other courses or for graduation requirements.</p>
<p>If the student’s potential majors do require calculus, it may be a good idea to take calculus in high school. If math is difficult for the student, the AB option (as opposed to the BC option) will be a gentler introduction to calculus than the college course, since the AB option covers only about a semester or slightly more than a semester of material found in a college freshman calculus course.</p>
<p>@ucbalumnus: Ah, sorry, I wasn’t aware. It’s been pretty much hammered into me since middle school that completing basic calculus is required for most majors, but I wasn’t aware that that is false. Thank you!</p>
<p>This brings up a related question: My D’s high school lists pre-calculus as a pre-requisite for Statistics. However, I took Statistics in college and got an A (the only final grade of A I’ve ever gotten for math) and I never went beyond Algebra II in high school and something called “College Algebra” in college. So – is pre-calculus really used in Statistics?</p>
<p>Sans Serif, I’d say it also depends on the nature of the algebra class and the nature of the precalculus class. I assume the goal here is to make sure that students in the statistics class have already had an introduction to counting: permutations, combinations and so on.</p>
<p>I’ve taught that in Algebra II, and I’ve also taught it in Precal. </p>
<p>Guess I thought it was funny that my Statistics for non-math majors at Penn State didn’t require pre-calculus, but my D15’s high school Statistics class does require pre-calculus.</p>
<p>I can honestly say that math only gets harder throughout high school. I was the same as your daughter. I got straight As in middle school, skipped around a bit thanks to online classes, and ended up in Honors Algebra II freshman year. That’s the first class I ever got a B in. But I kept going, taking harder math classes (Advanced Pre-cal and AP Calc BC), and my grades kept dropping. </p>
<p>Statistics was a godsend, though. I took AP Stat senior year, did great on the AP exam, and was able to place out of a statistics course in college. That course fulfilled the general graduation requirement at my school and, as a potential English major, I don’t have to take ANY more math classes when I go to college this fall (UNC-CH class of 2016!!). If your daughter doesn’t like math, I strongly recommend taking statistics so she can be done with math once and for all. Of course, that depends on the college she goes to (aim for ones that don’t require any calculus for graduation). And of course, Pre-cal is a prerequisite for Stat, so you can’t avoid that. But as someone who also isn’t good at math, I wouldn’t recommend touching BC Calc with a ten foot pole.</p>
<p>Which colleges DO REQUIRE that calculus be studied by non-STEM and economics majors? I vaguely remember that a handful of colleges did have that requirement 40 years ago when I looked at colleges but they were a distinct minority.</p>
<p>Right, thanks ucbalumnus. I was aware of various program and major requirements, but outside certain technical schools such as MIT and Caltech I couldn’t remember any specific colleges that required calculus of its students across the board. I had forgotten about the service academies.</p>
<p>I just graduated HS and I HIGHLY suggest your D to take precal and AP CALC. If she waits until college it will be much difficult and it would help her gain a stronger foundation for math as much as she doesn’t like it. My friend took AP calculus in HS and when he got to UC Berkeley he found it easier and didn’t have to go to all of his classes and he isn’t a math wiz. I’ve always struggled with math but trust me it will pay off and if she takes APCALC which I think is considerably easier then precal there will be a big weight of her shoulder. She won’t get as much attention as in HS when she’s in college. It’s hard enough in HS to get help wit h 40 people in a class but it’s manageable. In college it’s 100+ people and it’s all lectures. THE next best option would be to take AP STATS which is easier then calculus and it will help her in college. Don’t take regular stats it’s a joke of a class and won t learn anything.</p>
<p>But, olivizzle, why should glorious9th’s daughter take calculus at all? Ever? If she’s not good at math, presumably she’s not going to pursue science or engineering or even economics. Those fields are all too math-heavy. </p>
<p>AP Statistics might make some sense. People should know something about statistics. I think there are a couple of concepts in single-variable calculus that could be fairly useful to a person who doesn’t otherwise need calculus, but by and large, if you don’t need calculus, you really don’t need calculus.</p>
It depends on which calculus she would be taking in college. Most offer a Calculus for Non-Majors which is much easier than regular Calculus I.<br>
Even a lot of large colleges cap the size of their math courses, and most smaller colleges will have courses with 30 or less. Recitation sections are often provided as well. </p>
<p>Agree with Sikorsky - unless the college requires it for their core or the major, there isn’t really a need to pursue calculus. Statistics is more useful.</p>
<p>OP here. It’s interesting to hear the range of perspectives on this. I’ll admit I hadn’t been considering her college coursework before now. D1 is enrolled in a state flagship, and would not have had to take math at all if her major had not required it; the quantitative reasoning requirement is considered fulfilled for students who score 600 or better on SAT math, 550 on SAT II Math II, ACT 28, etc. Even students who do have to take math at this flagship only need to take pre-calculus or a basic statistics course to fulfill the requirement. So I’m inclined to agree with Sikorsky that it shouldn’t be necessary to take calculus at all, at any level, particularly since D2 will <em>not</em> be majoring in any STEM discipline.</p>
<p>Several have suggested taking AP Statistics rather than calculus, and this seems like a good idea. But I’m interested in the comment by ucbalumnus (whose points I have found particularly helpful in this thread!) that precalculus is "generally considered the ‘fourth year of high school math’ in the US, which leads me back to one of my original questions, which is whether colleges that do require four years of math will in fact see pre-calc as the 4th year of math. My daughter will be taking pre-calculus in her junior year; will that fulfill the “4 year” math requirement, even though she may only actually take 3 years of math in high school? Or, to be on the safe side, should she take AP Stats as a senior?</p>