4-degrees Restriction

Colleges and Universities A-Z Air Force Academy - Colorado Springs
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<p>I agree with eagle, to a huge extent. In general, what you said was spot on. What I do to counter it is to just hold myself to higher standards (...than anyone else expects of me ;)...) But it is honestly not that hard of a place. The ratio of how hard it actually is to the amount of ^*<em>@%</em>^_ is completely skewed. People act as if this place is ridiculously out of line with the stuff they make us do, yet it is relaly not all THAT much different froma civilian college, save that we march to lunch occasionally, wear a uniform everyday, get to do some cool, free stuff over the summers, and have a slightly strenuous frouth class year. People seem to confuse the meaning or definition, I guess, of "difficulty" or "hard". Getting restricted one weekend (or just not being able to leave very occassionally), and wearing a uniform everyday do not make this place "tough". VERY hard physical training sessions, being held to the exact standards ALL THE TIME, among many other things, makes a place "tough", "difficult" and "special". I do not see many of these things here on a regular basis, and when I do see them, people moan and complain until leadership is forced to let it go. It is, like eagle said, a cultural issue, and I also think it is very sad. </p>

<p>Not sure if any of the cadets in here read the letter by the Praetorian Gaurd about problems at West Point? I thought it was actually an excellent piece and brought up a ton of good points that could be used here to, in my opinion, great success in going back to the way is used to be.</p>

<p>sorry for the rant.</p>

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<p>Interesting. To compare, the plebes at West Point get one pass per semester which most use for Labor Day Weekend in the fall and Presidents Day weekend in the spring. There are a few passes given out as rewards for maxing APFT, etc., but they are the exception more than the rule. Daily meal formations for breakfast and lunch (not sure abt mandatory thurs dinner formations). I guess as was stated above, "hard" or "tough" is "relative"</p>

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<p>I agree with a lot of what's been said. First of all, I had no problem with them restricting the class. I heard that it was a large number who were caught doing exactly what we'd just been told not to, so I think some form of punishment was warranted. From what I saw, the decorum DID improve over the three days the restriction was in effect, but I would have had no problem with them maintaining it - again, it was justified in my opinion. Also, I agree that, though it's definitely not everyone, some people like to whine far too much. Like eagle said, this place really isn't all that bad. Suck it up and move on. I also agree that we four degrees get too many passes. When I was originally told that we got five, I thought it was per semester, not per go (which is four times as many). Also, due to the winning nature of the football team this year, we've been getting free discretionary passes almost every weekend. I used my second pass of the year last night. Because we're now in the third "go" of the semester, I've been given 15 so far. There's no way anybody could burn all their passes, which isn't the way it should work, in my opinion.</p>

<p>Again, I don't mean to complain about things being easy, but we could definitely have it a lot worse as a class.</p>

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<p>Pass go's are different from PE go's. There are 2 pass go's per semester, not four. There have been a lot of free passes lately...which is nice. </p>

<p>I'm going to have to disagree with Patriot on the comparison between here and a civilian college. I think that some overstate the differences enormously (they are probably also the "back when it was hard" crowd). The academies are very different from most colleges. I don't know many colleges that have weekend training, mandatory sports, mandatory meals, require that people sign out to leave campus, or prohibit having TVs in the dorms (sans seniors). I know that sleeping through my chemistry class was never really an option here; although it didn't seem to bother my friend at UIUC. Then again, I don't have to worry about a part-time job like my friends back home do.</p>

<p>USAFA is not as hard as I expected in some ways, but it is also harder in some areas that I didn't expect. I think that giving cadets more freedom can be a good thing. When we're LTs, we won't have a lot of the oversight we get here...but we must perform to an equal or higher level. Learning to ignore distractions and to self-motivate is a very important thing to learn. </p>

<p>If you want fewer passes, you should have gone to West Point. ;)</p>

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<p>I went to civilian college for a year. While yes, it is very different in some ways, it is in other ways very similar, and for the most part, it is not significantly harder (not significantly, although I did go to a very tough engineering school, and this place is still harder). My point was that the things that seperate us from a civilian college right now do not necessarily mean that we have it any harder. I came here expecting a significantly more difficult challenge than my civilian college experience. There were times when I definitely had that- Recognition, Beast, for example. But the normal school year, while it had its "pains" was not necessarily what I was expecting. The things that seperated this experience from my civilian college experience was mainly what you stated, raimius, a lack of freedom- ot a truly unique, character shaping set of ideas and rules. Now I'm no expert on this, but it seems to me like merely taking freedom and slightly overscheduling us does not consitute the claims that this is a vastly different, vastly more difficult experience that will automatically mold great leaders and people of great character. Don't get me wrong, the quality of people here is, for the most part very high. I just think the gap that seperates us from most other colleges in terms of how we do things is not nearly as big as a lot of people think it is.</p>

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<p>I'd agree with that. I think it is that USAFA forces people to do certain things, rather than leaving it to choice. Whether that "forces" leadership can be debated. I think it does force certain people to become better leaders, but is nowhere near leadership forming experience some would claim.</p>

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<p>This was not my intention when I posted that the restriction was lifted. My original intention was to let the parents of 4-degrees know that their kid's could go out this weekend. I talked to my mom on Saturday, and she said that some parents on the Parent board were a little upset about the restriction. I was not saying either way what I thought about it, I was just being informative.</p>

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<p>Patriot:</p>

<p>i did read that letter, and it was very similar to mt beliefs here. Some things i think were unnecessary, but for the most part i thought it was right on. I hope West Point takes it to heart and spreads it with the other academies.</p>

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<p>Sadly Falcon you are right many of the parents at the other locations your mother follows were making far too much of the restriction.</p>

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<p>raimius:</p>

<p>first off, the "back-when-it-was-hard" is very true. granted, sometimes it was worse than others, but overall the nature of society today does not allow the hard times that older classes went through.</p>

<p>second, not to say your 4 dig year was a joke, but being in the squad you were in last year (and hearing that this year is going much the same as last year), i would say that your 4 dig year was relatievely easy when compared to some other squadrons. i have been working to make things tougher around here, to almost no avail. when your freshman squad is easy, it makes the whole place a lot easier.</p>

<p>now granted, academics are very tough. but academics are tough at most high caliber colleges. so that's no different than civilian college. although we march a little more and wear uniforms every day, i do not see a huge difference between what we gain from here and what an ROTC attachment gains. this leads to the bigger question of "Are the academies even worth it economically?" ie, is the difference in amount spent on cadets in academies really worth the outcome? sure stats like "more grads are generals" can be used, but who's to say that person would not ahve been general no matter what path they had taken?</p>

<p>sorry if this raises a big debate, but its how i feel. i'm not saying we should abandon the academies, i'm saying we should make them worth the extra investment</p>

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<p>The whole restriction was bogus anyway. We were told 'hundreds' of 4 degrees were walking and talking on the strips right after the briefing. I was out there and there was no way there was anywhere near even 100 cadets walking/talking on the strips. All it was was a stupid show of power by wing, saying 'we can restrict you'. Restricting everyone for the actions of a few has always been and always will be reserved for horrible leaders.</p>

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<p>But at the same time, the leadership is trying to instill in the class of 2011 a sense of companionship and teamwork in each other as classmates. That's an essential lesson of the Academy that has to be learned: you are responsible for your classmates/wingmen and their actions as much as yours.</p>

<p>I was once stopped on the terazzo by an officer after a football game because I was talking on my cell phone (I know...bad me...I was so excited about the game I couldn't wait to call my parents until I got back to my room). The officer then scolded the people around me for not making sure I was doing what I was supposed to do (since noone said anything) and made the 4 of us help him stop people walking across the grass.</p>

<p>Being responsible for your teammates is a problem across the wing. The practices and character that develop teamwork start freshman year, which is why wing leadership tries so hard to instill that in the freshmen early. It's something everyone has to learn. </p>

<p>Because of this, being restricted as a class is a part of freshman life at the Academy. That's just how it is.</p>

<p>My two cents...take 'em for what they're worth. :P</p>

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<p>Eagle, I agree that there were harder times at the academy. I don't like people harping on that fact because the ones saying it are often trying to make a point about how much better they/their academy was "back in the day." I did have a very easy squadron 1st semester. It changed second semester because our training staff saw the shortcommings of the 1st semester staff going easy on us. In retrospect, we (as freshmen) gained a LOT more during 2nd semester.</p>

<p>I also agree that, in its current state, the academy probably isn't worth the extra cost...not that I'm complaining about being the spoiled child. It also brings some lessons that wouldn't normally be learned into the AD AF. I think there is some real value to this, even though it is relatively intangible.</p>

<p>AC:
Group punishment can be a very effective tool. It puts pressure on both sides. The individual does not want to fail, because they would let down the group, and the group does not want the individual to fail because they will see the same effects. It stinks to be on the recieving end, but it will help build a team. It is not a horrible leadership tool, although it can be a tool of horrible leaders. It's like a joke--it's all about the delivery.</p>

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<p>AC232323:</p>

<p>so maybe the reason they gave you was bad. but you guys certaintly deserved it. as a class, 2011 has horrible decorum at meals, supposed "at attention" to tables, not running, not greeting half the time, etc. it's about time they make you realize "oh, we're freshmen here, not recognized, and should do stuff right." it seems to have fixed a ouple people, but not enough.</p>

<p>now i know every class starts to slack and what not and see what they can get away with, and that's when the upper three classes are to blame. but 2011's decorum started to slack even before parent's weekend, which is unacceptable. i thought my class had it easy last year, but 2011 makes us look like professionals</p>

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<p>Individual 4 digs will never think that their actions affect the entire class. Do you honestly think any 4 degree is now going to be like, 'oh, no i'm not going to talk on the t-zo, because they'll restrict the entire class again'? No, it won't happen. And it definitely doesn't instill teamwork in a situation in this. All it does is make the people doing their job hate the kids that were talking on the strips. Also, the 'our class was so much more stract than yours' are annoying as hell. Especially when it's upperclassmen that are saying it. Who's fault do you think it is if the 4th class are ****bags? It's the upperclassmen. If you want people to stop talking and start running the strips then drop them on the strips everytime you see it happen.</p>

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<p>Well, my buds and I had to correct about seven 4-digs who left Mitch's, walked across the bridge to the bottom of Fairchild, decided to obvious talked and monkey around, then we corrected them as they came to the other bridge. They didn't have to run since they just ate, but couldn't wait to get back to their rooms to talk. They were so shocked by us that they forgot they didn't have to run and started to run back.</p>

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<p>AC: I just might do that. You're right in that group punishment ticks off the people who are doing their job, but isn't a possible outcome that those people try to influence their peers to do what they're supposed to?</p>

<p>And while we may have said that decorum in 2011 is lacking, I will personally say I do not think "the current class is ****bags." To be honest, it's pretty darn hard to be worse than 2010 was, and I'm just being honest about it. We know how it was, and now we see the other side of the fence as upperclassmen, and realize that we're just as responsible as the freshmen are for their lacking decorum, and I'll be the first to admit that.</p>

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<p>


This is EXACTLY what I was talking about earlier. You have NOTHING to be complaining about. You've been here for what, 3 months? And you've been restricted once (as a class) this entire time? You guys have been doing terrible, I'm sorry to break it to you, but it's true. Your class, in general, CONTINUALLY break small rules- every time I turn my head, I see someone else with backpack on their shoulders, talking on the strips, walking when there is no reason to walk. The restriction was COMPLETELY justified. </p>

<p>I was restricted 75% of the time last year, for things WAY more trivial than the reasoning behind this one. And yet for some reason, we (my squad) *<strong><em>ed about 95% less than your class. My history class that friday was literally a 45 minute *</em></strong> session by the 4 degrees. </p>

<p>My point here is that you should'nt ever, as a 4 degree, expect priveledges as set in stone. Especially when your leadership has expressed dissatisfaction with your performance so far.


It's not the upperclassmens fault, I correct in my squad all the time, yet the same *()&bags continue to have terrible decorum. Some kids just come in here with a chip on their shoulder, expecting to own the place, and it *</em></strong>es upperclassmen off. The current stigma in the wing prevents a change in attitude from these kids from simple corrections from a few upperclassmen.</p>

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<p>did i not say "that's when the upper three classes are to blame". i know as a group we need to step up and hold you all responsible. but you need to learn the concept of teamwork and suck it up or leave</p>

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<p>Guys, guys - come on. These forums are built on the same thing that the Academy revolves around: respect.</p>

<p>Here's what I can tell you. First of all, I actually think the restriction, short-lived as it was, was effective. I saw a definite improvement in decorum among my classmates. Secondly, the majority of the class is doing just fine. 95% of the current four degrees aren't creating any sort of real problems, but of course, the other 5% make everyone look terrible. It really is a shame that a few rotten apples spoil the whole bunch (or however that saying goes). Lastly, I wouldn't be too quick to place the blame for our decorum on the shoulders of our upperclassmen. The blame should rest primarily with those who are messing up, namely us. Sure, the upper three classes may be held partially accountable in certain situations, but we as a class need to take responsibilty for our own mistakes.</p>

<p>Now, this thread has gone a little too far. I personally know the majority of my classmates who post on these forums, and every one of them is in the aforementioned 95%. In attempt to close the thread, let me say the following. Some of our classmates whine too much. Some of our classmates have poor decorum. Some upperclassmen contribute to the problem by failing to correct us when we mess up. This year's four degrees aren't perfect - no freshman class ever will be. However, the vast majority of us want to be here and are consistently putting in the effort. Teamwork is a concept we're working on, and, from my point of view, the class as a whole is improving. Can we let this thread go now please?</p>