<p>I would appreciate some feedback on how important the 4th year of a foreign language is to the college application process.</p>
<p>My son is just finishing his sophomore year at a high achieving private day school. He is in the Honors track for his math and sciences and will be in AP Eng, AP US History, and AP Biology during his jr year. He has worked hard, but struggled through Latin (non-Honors) getting a B- last year and B+/A- this year. He is being pushed by the school to continue with the Latin, even though he really wants to stop and take Computer Science instead. Any thoughts?</p>
Is he likely to go to a college that has a foreign language requirement for graduation? If so, he will have an easier time if he takes as much as possible of the language of choice in high school. Even if he does not take the AP test in his language, he might do well enough in a placement test in college to place out (or only have to take one semester).
Someone else can correct me if I am thinking about this incorrectly, but he will only show 2 years of high school language (not 3) on his transcript. That would be considered light by many top universities, I think. Even if they start in 8th grade with the first level of the language, I think the colleges really only look at how many years he took in high school. If he is aiming lower (not top universities, or a strictly STEM school), then it might be okay. </p>
<p>My kids HATE languages, but LACs where they do/want to attend pretty much require them. My D2 did drop her language 2nd semester of her junior year for scheduling reasons, but did tutoring and self study to keep on track to pick it up again in the fall at the AP level in spite of her loathing.</p>
<p>Three years of language won’t hurt his chances at 99% of the schools in the country, but it would probably be better to suck it up for another year if he really wanted to maximize his chances at extremely selective schools. Top 20 schools will be looking for any excuse they can get to reject an applicant.</p>
<p>Also, I’m almost positive that it will count as three years of language if he took the first course in eighth grade. The level completed is the important part.</p>
<p>You’ll get plenty of stories of my son did fine without the extra year, and plenty saying my kid took the 3rd or 4th year and also did fine and might not have if they hadn’t. Both my kids applied to schools that expected three years and some preferred four. My younger son struggled with the decision, but did end up taking Latin 4 so as to have 3 full years on his high school transcript. The B- he got was a gift from his teacher - it didn’t hurt him getting into Tufts, U of Chicago and Vassar. Getting an A in something else might have been even better, we’ll never know. That kid is an IR major - and he’s still struggling with languages - Arabic now!</p>
<p>I don’t see this as a “4th” year issue as much as an issue that he stopped his foreign language after sophomore year. Every school we have visited has said that if a student only does 2 years of a language in high school, they prefer to see those years done as a junior and senior. That certainly isn’t a requirement, but if he is looking at highly selective schools, he is better off sticking with the language, at least through junior year.</p>
<p>This is not consistent with information my kids received during the application process. </p>
<p>My son took levels 1 and 2 of foreign language in middle school and level 3 as a high school freshman. He then dropped foreign language so that he could take computer science, after being told by his guidance counselor that what he had already taken would count as 3 years of foreign language for college admissions purposes. He was admitted to at least one college that specifically required 3 years of foreign language (as well as to the school he ultimately attended, which required 2 years) even though he had only one year of foreign language actually taken in high school.</p>
<p>Marian==over the years we have visited 30+ schools with the kids and every single school has said that they prefer if you only take 2 years of a foreign language, that those 2 years should be as juniors and seniors. I also think that if everything else looks good, it’s probably a non-issue down the road at 99% of the schools, but like I said in my other post, if he is applying to highly selective schools, it could make a difference and coming in with 5 years of a foreign language could be what sets him apart.</p>
<p>S1 took Latin 1,2,3 then opted out for senior year
S2 took Spanish 1 as a soph.,failed Spanish 2 as a jr. (ugh), repeated Spanish 2 as a sr.
Both applied only to state u’s and were admitted to all.</p>
<p>The OP’s child doesn’t have two years of foreign language. He has three years, one of which was taken in middle school and two of which were taken in high school.</p>
<p>Even if colleges prefer the arrangement you suggest (and I defer to your knowledge here), the OP’s child has met the admissions requirement for colleges that require two years of foreign language in high school. </p>
<p>The questions that are more relevant here are (1) has the OP’s child met the foreign language requirement of colleges that require three years of foreign language for admission, and (2) would there be an advantage to taking one more year, given that he struggles with foreign language and likely would earn a lower grade in that class than he would in the subject he would substitute for it?</p>
<p>It could be an issue at some highly selective schools. My older S was faced with the same issue (also from a high achieving private day school) - he really didn’t want to continue into AP Latin as a junior, and wanted to take an AP in another subject instead (one that he eventually ending up majoring in in college). </p>
<p>During a legacy interview at a highly selective college the summer before his senior year, the admissions officer reviewing his transcript did ask why didn’t take a language as a junior. He explained why - and the admissions officer said that he had a good reason, but that his guidance counselor should be explaining this to colleges, because admissions officers would ask this question. When I mentioned this to his guidance counselor/college counselor, her answer was “Yes, I’ve already written it”.</p>
<p>I just wanted to add that it’s very good for the <em>high school</em> to get kids into AP Vergil. I think you and your son should decide what’s best for <em>him</em>, which sounds like stopping with the Latin already.</p>
<p>Marion–three years will only show up IF they send middle school transcripts along…did he go to the same prep school in middle school? I think it is slippery slope, if he is applying to HYP, etc. If he isn’t, probably doesn’t matter but I would contact the ad comms at the schools he is considering to see what they say.</p>
<p>Although it’s true that three years will show up only if they send middle school transcripts, I think that the situation of starting foreign language in middle school is common enough that colleges understand that a student who took Latin 2 in grade 9 and Latin 3 in grade 10 must have taken Latin 1 in middle school. </p>
<p>But I think you’ve hit on an important point here. Based on the student’s academic record so far (including both grades and the PSAT, if he took it in 10th grade) and the experience of students at his high school in getting into selective colleges, perhaps the student and parent can figure out roughly what selectivity level of colleges he can reasonably aspire to.</p>
<p>If he can aspire to the very top (which might be possible if those Latin grades are the ONLY less-than-outstanding grades on his transcript, if his PSAT score is extremely high, and if he has exceptional ECs), then perhaps the fourth year of Latin is worthwhile – although in that case I would suggest that he work with a tutor throughout the year to help him achieve a reasonable grade.</p>
<p>But if the rest of his academic record is in line with his Latin grades, then he’s not a candidate for the top schools anyway, and I see no reason for him to suffer through Latin 4.</p>
<p>We have repeatedly heard they want every year of high school to include the five ‘core’ classes- one of which is language. My D isn’t happy about AP Spanish but she probably won’t be happy about some required college class, or aspect of her job, or 3 AM feedings either. They’ve also been clear that a B or 2 won’t be the end of the world. Of course to the kids a B can absolutely be the end of the world in their mind, but if your S is after selective schools, and I don’t mean just HYP, you’d be wise to call admissions at the least. Given he’s a sophomore I would say he should take Latin again because it’s too soon to really know all the schools he will want to consider. He may not need it, but on the other hand if he finds he should have stayed in language that is just one more source of anxiety at a time there is already plenty.</p>
<p>Depends what he was TAKING that sophomore year.</p>
<p>I would suggest you contact a couple of colleges to ask…but this was our experience with both of our kids. Because they took Spanish in Middle school…they completed Honors Spanish FOUR in tenth grade. Every college they were interested in said the same thing…they wanted students to complete the a fourth year “level” of foreign language. Neither of our kids took FL in 11th or 12 grade.</p>
<p>Of course our kids graduated from HS in 2003 and 2006 so perhaps times have changed.</p>
<p>DS did not have a language requirement in college at all…for his major. DD didn’t have a FL requirement for engineering but DID have one for biology which she was able to satisfy by taking one term of the same language she took in HS (by special request…this was her second major).</p>
<p>Ah…no. Our high school did not send MS transcripts. BUT the HS one said Spanish THREE and Spanish FOUR…you can’t take THOSE without taking ONE AND TWO.</p>
<p>We also visited well over 30 colleges between our two kids. (Must be different ones that SteveMA) and NONE had an issue with the way our kids took FL (9th and 10th grade only…completing Honors FL Four in tenth grade). </p>
<p>In SMALL high schools like ours, it would have been virtually IMPOSSIBLE for a student to take the first two years of ANY foreign language as a junior/senior due to scheduling issues. Students typically took these courses as freshmen/sophomores…so the master schedule for all other classes was set around this sort of thing. Having a student take course “out of grade level” would have been a scheduling issue at a very small high school like ours.</p>
<p>BUT YMMV re: the colleges’ requirements these days so as Marian said…contact a couple of colleges and see what THEY say.</p>
<p>Just for the record…our son also didn’t take precalculus his senior year of high school opting instead for statistics/economics. He graduated from a university ranked 60.</p>
<p>Wow! What a nice surprise to get up this morning and take a peek at the question I posed before hopping into bed last night and find all this thoughtful feedback. Thank you.
As posted, my son is a young sophomore (not 16 until the end of the school year) and really has no definite designs on a specific college per se. That being said, many of the graduating class from his school attend excellent schools (a fourth of the class score high enough on the PSAT to become National Merit Scholars (in Ohio) with admission to a smattering of Ivies, including HYPS …but these are often athletes, which this son is not) . He is in an accelerated Science curriculum for the school and achieves almost always A minuses, but does well in his other humanities with As (or even recently an A+ in his English). He is taking AP Stats (the only AP class available to sophomores at his school and he will get either an A- or B+). I would venture he will probably finish his high school experience with about at 3.6 (the school does not weight the GPA), taking the hardest courses offered by his school (save foreign language!) and will be ranked around the 20th percentile in his class. He is an Eagle Scout and will have some substantial extra-curriculars to give as well. Sometimes he talks engineering .sometimes teaching English …sometimes field biologist it should be fun to see what happens!</p>