5th year PhD student: Thinking about transferring to another PhD program

Graduate School
1

<p>The title says it all, but I want to provide some more context.</p>

<p>I'm in the 5th year of my PhD program (I don't want to name any specific details). I have bounced around a lot within my department, but recently I just got my first paper, and I'm in the process of finishing it up. I'm not done with my PhD, but realistically speaking, it's very possible for me to graduate at the end of 6 years. I am not sure if the department would fund a 7th year, but I may need it. </p>

<p>The problem is, if I keep working on what I am working on, I will not have any really good prospects. I know what I want to work on and I can't work on it in my current situation. </p>

<p>I recently saw a posting by a professor whose research I follow extremely closely and it is one of my main goals to get a result and get on their radar. I originally just wanted to get on their radar, possibly do a postdoc with them. They emailed me back saying why not just apply for the PhD program? They do not care how far along I am in my current PhD program. </p>

<p>Without getting into too many details, here are the following issues:
1) Because I bounced around a lot in the department, I don't have a great looking application. It is a decent application, but this professors runs a really good lab. I seriously wonder if I can get in.
2) There's also the issue of my adviser. My adviser would have to write me my lead letter of recommendation for my application. What happens if I don't get in? Then I have to come back to that situation? Would I basically be forced to drop out? </p>

<p>I hope you guys understand my need for discretion, so this isn't something I can talk to my adviser about yet. I'm just trying to see what is possible and gauge the situation properly and then decide what to do.
3) Really the issue is the following. If I stay in my current situation, I'll end up graduating, but I won't have great job prospects. My academic/postdoc prospects are not very good at all as I don't have enough papers or results to compete for those really good postdoc positions. In my field, typical top applicants have at least 4 or 5, and sometimes over a dozen articles in conferences and journals, more conferences, but some in journals too. My industrial options are not great either. So I view staying as possible danger as well. </p>

<p>While I do not think I have a "great" chance of getting admitted...I'm starting to wonder what choice do I have but to apply? </p>

<p>I've also been thinking in terms of time frames. I may realistically need a 7th year or part of a 7th year to graduate. So that's 2 more years. Say I just graduated from my current program, so that's year 6 + 7. Because I won't have great job prospects, best case I will need to do a masters program which typically takes another 2 years. So that's 4 years.</p>

<p>Well if I got into this PhD program, it would take me about 4 years to graduate and I'd have far greater job prospects and I would be funded. Some masters programs I am considering, I don't think they would bother funding me, so that's also a crap load of student loans. </p>

<p>To me the only thing I'm worried about is tact and perception if I don't get in. If I apply, don't get in...am I pretty much done with my adviser? That would mean, at this point of my current PhD program, I'm dropping out. </p>

<p>Does anyone have any experience or any thoughts on this?</p>

<p>I really don't want to come off as a brat. I never really found my stride in my current program, but I did my best to soldier through, because realistically, I didn't know what else I wanted to do. I have a decent relationship with my adviser, though I believe they may be a little annoyed with me because I am starting to stray with my research interests (precisely to the research of this other professor I want to work with!). I really respect my adviser a lot, and I don't want to **** them off or make them feel bad. </p>

<p>I also feel guilty about taking 5 years of funding from this program and not even graduating and then leaving when I'm starting to get traction with my research. Though I have to be honest, the paper I have is pretty much a one-off and I currently don't have a real viable problem to work on. However, like I said, I really do feel guilty about taking the funding for 5 years, and then possibly bolting?</p>

<p>But in my heart...I feel like I need to take this chance. I'm getting older, and I dunno if I'll have another opportunity to do this again. The problem is I didn't find out about any of this stuff until I was deep into my current PhD. I was very ignorant to it all, just never got exposed to it. </p>

<p>Overall, I think the situation is clear. If I stay, I don't think I have good long term prospects. My research record isn't great so postdocs are out, and the type of research I do, it isn't conducive to industry. If I try to transfer to this other PhD program, well I don't estimate myself to have a superb chance of getting in. I wouldn't say it's a 5% chance, but I also wouldn't say it is a coin flip 50% chance either. Somewhere in between. However, if I can get in, I believe this would really alter the direction of my life drastically. But the risk is if I don't get in, I might alienate my adviser and worst case, the department recommends that I drop out? </p>

<p>I appreciate any advice or experience anyone can share. I'm really hoping to hear from someone who has done this or knows someone who has done this.</p>

<p>EDIT: I also wanted to add that I would be applying to a different PhD field than my current field. Though they have some overlap, they are not the same by any stretch. I believe my reasons for transferring are good (I am already reading all of this particular professor's papers and I can't get this research done in my current situation).</p>

2

<p>Would there be any way for you to try and work out some sort of “visiting scholar” position similar to what you’d get if you were to spend some time at a national lab or a foreign school? You could try and do something where this guy would wind up being your coadvisor. That might let you finish your PhD timely (remember, a lot of programs won’t let you transfer classes, so you’ll need to retake everything), and set yourself up for a Post Doc for this professor after you finish off your degree.</p>

<p>Honestly, I’m surprised they’d want you as a fresh student instead of finishing up your program and going there. It seems like it would cost them more in salary and tuition than if you do the sort of program I’m talking about.</p>

3

<p>Hey Racin,</p>

<p>Thank you for your reply.</p>

<p>My current progam and this program I want to enter…they are sort of different, but also similar in some aspects. I don’t really have courses to transfer over to be honest. </p>

<p>I initially emailed this professor asking if I could visit his lab for a summer, I could maybe even get my own adviser to fund it. But they emailed me back saying, hey I don’t really care about age, he is taking applicants and he wants to expand his lab. </p>

<p>Again, these are not similar fields to be honest. That’s why I think it would be extremely hard to setup a co-adviser-ship. I think if I want to do this research, I need to be in his lab. My adviser does not know enough and I don’t think they are particularly interested in this line of work either. </p>

<p>Honestly, it’s really hard to collaborate remotely with strangers when I’m working on this field completely by myself. No other professors at my university do this line of research. It’s really only a handful of labs, and his is one of the best. However, one interesting thing is that maybe the university which he is located in is not as prestigious as other universities that also have similar labs (Stanford, University of Toronto). </p>

<p>Let me put it this way, the type of research he does, most of it would not help me graduate in my current program even if I could independently master it. Not enough overlap. It’s a little bit outside the boundaries of my current department. I could get 3 or 4 papers in this field and I don’t know if the department would accept it for a thesis.</p>

<p>I think the reason they don’t care about me doing this is because it’s not like I’m transferring to the same field. I’m transferring to a different field. It’s not like I’m transferring from a physics department to another physics department. Think more like I’m a physics student transferring to an engineering department. Some overlap, but the style is very different and the types of papers are very different.</p>

4

<p>Do I understand correctly that if you stick with your current PhD program, your best case scenario is to then get into a 2-year unfunded master’s program? Why not just drop out of the PhD program now and go for the master’s instead? Cuts two years off your plan and you end up in the same place.</p>

<p>And if that’s a workable solution, there’s no reason not to apply to the other PhD program while you’re at it. In either case, you’re not in your current program, so no issue of burning a bridge that you’re then stuck standing on.</p>

5

<p>Dude, I think you are in the same place I was 3-4 years ago, just more advanced. I’m a 6th year PhD student myself, for context.</p>

<p>This is gonna be long. The short of it all is that I think you can probably finish your current program, get a postdoc, and move into doing what you want to do. I think you should stay put, finish your current degree, and then do a postdoc in the related-but-not-really field that you want to enter. It’s probably more possible than you actually think.</p>

<p>Here’s the long version:</p>

<p>First of all, it sounds like this professor is being a bit exploitative. He needs graduate students to build his lab and help him publish, so of course he’s willing to take a current 5th year. He needs them now, and not 2 years from now, which is why he asked you to transfer rather than do a postdoc there. You already know how to do research, you’re well-conditioned into the grad school environment, and you want to be in his lab badly enough that you’re willing to basically start all over. He will basically have to spend little to no time mentoring you in grad school stuff and can make you do his lab research. Ignore his needs for right now and focus on yours. I believe that if he wants you badly enough as a graduate student now, he will probably want you again in 2 years for a postdoc.</p>

<p>Secondly, it’s very common for doctoral students to develop different lines of research/interests in the latter years of our programs and want to explore those, very different from our advisers’ research. That’s normal; that’s expected, even. It’s growth. The best solution, for most of us, is to be patient, finish up, and wait until the postdoc or the first academic job to explore those other areas.</p>

<p>Thirdly, I think that you jumped way too quickly straight to “transfer programs!” rather than think about the other stuff you could do. You said it may be difficult to set up a co-advisership. Try first. You said a physics student to engineering; that would actually be very easy to set up a co-advisership in or some kind of collaboration and wouldn’t necessitate a second master’s degree, and a physics student with the appropriate preparation could likely do a postdoc in the engineering sciences and do some research in engineering, if they were dedicated enough.</p>

<p>I also really really like RacinReaver’s suggestion of setting up a visiting student situation. We have them all the time from universities in Germany. They come and stay in our lab for a few months or a year or two and do their dissertation research. If he’s willing to support you as a graduate student to start from the ground up, then he should be willing to support you as a visiting student for 2-3 years, and then transition you into a postdoc potentially. You’d still be doing the same work for him, but you wouldn’t need to start all over. If you don’t know if your department would accept it as a dissertation, find out. Ask the DGS but ask them to keep it to themselves (you don’t have to go into detail; just ask about the area. But if they are as similar as physics and engineering, this shouldn’t be a problem).</p>

<p>Fourth, I think that some of this is fueled by your feelings of inadequacy and your fears about the market. This, in your mind, brings you further away from the market and gives you a chance to “redeem” yourself, if you will. But in my experience, most students don’t have that many publications when they go into postdocs - that’s kind of the point of a postdoc, is to get some pubs and get the research funding started. If you have one publication you may be competitive for many postdocs, even if they aren’t the very top-tier postdocs in your field. At this point the way to get more papers is to get a postdoc. Postdocs are where people get the articles and the grants/research money. I’ve been perusing my own field and many postdoc applicants have 2 or less articles - sometimes none - when they go into postdocs. At our level it’s more about potential than actual accomplishments. Make sure you aren’t comparing yourself only to the few superstars in your field but to the actual average applicant (and not just looking at the 5 most desirable postdocs, but looking at the average postdoc too). There was a time when I thought that my application was weaksauce and I would never get a job, but upon doing some more realistic comparisons I realized I’m actually average to above average.</p>

<p>Fifth, I think your timeline is wonky. If the switch is really akin to physics to engineering, you most likely will not need to do an MS after - you could probably do a postdoc (in fact, you may be able to do a postdoc that will PAY for you to take classes in that other field while doing research, or even allow you to earn an MS - there are many of those in my field for people who are doing a related-but-not-really switch). Also, I don’t think this new program would take you 4 years. You said you don’t have any coursework to transfer and would be learning a somewhat entirely new field, so it would probably take you the standard 5-6 years.</p>

<p>Sixth, I think you need to seek out a lot more information before you make this decision. What is the new department like? What are the students like? What classes would you need to take? Is this adviser a nice person, or is he crazy, or is he going to make your life unpleasant? (Just because he does great research doesn’t mean he’s great to work for, especially if he thinks it’s okay to convince a fifth year PhD student to start over. Just that alone would make me wary of him.) How long would it really take you to finish? What is this program’s reputation in its own field, and where are students ending up with jobs afterwards?</p>

<p>*</p>

<p>On a more personal level, don’t let guilt about funding keep you somewhere you’re unhappy. You have to do what’s best for you. When grad programs make investments in students they do it with the knowledge that students sometimes leave for various reasons. It’s an investment, and just like other investments sometimes you lose money ont hem. <em>shrug</em></p>

<p>I also have to say that my personal feelings are coloring this. Again, I’m a sixth year student. While I like graduate school for the most part and have really enjoyed (mostly) my experience here, I would never ever ever do this crazy business again.</p>

<p>*</p>

<p>So long story short, again, in your situation I would do one of three things:</p>

<p>1) Try to set up a co-advisership, where he advises you on what classes you need to take to switch fields and you do a dissertation project that’s related to your current field and this new field, and then you leave and go postdoc with him.</p>

<p>2) Get him to give you some funding as a visiting student in his lab, and then go squat in his lab for 2-3 years while still enrolled at your old school. Do a project that you can submit as a dissertation to old school, graduate, and then stay in dude’s lab for a postdoc.</p>

<p>OR</p>

<p>3) Just motor through your own program, selecting a quick and dirty dissertation project with your own adviser that you can finish this year or the beginning of the next, and write a grant application with this new adviser to fund yourself as a postdoc in his lab. In the training portion you can write in funds to take coursework in the field to better make the switch, thus not having to take out excessive loans just to learn this new area. You can do the grant in options #1 and #2, too.</p>

<p>But I wouldn’t transfer.</p>

6

<p>I agree with juillet wholeheartedly.</p>

7

<p>Wow, thank you both for your incredible feedback. I really like the way you guys framed it. I am extremely grateful for your thoughtful responses.</p>