<p>So then what is your explanation for minorities at other top ranked LACs?? Vassar has 38% minorities. Yet their mid 50% act is 30-33, and W&L is 29-32.
So, Vassar has HIGHER act scores, with about 2.5x the minority population as W&L.
Vassar is ranked 13 vs W&L 14 so the caliber of applicants is likely very similair, yet vassar accepts over double the minorities while keeping their standardized tests above W&L which dispells your theory.</p>
<p>Basically your saying that qualified minorities apply to every other top LAC in the country, and that somehow all the minority applicants to W&L are unqualified. Makes perfect sense</p>
<p>Goblue, I checked out the profile pamphlet issued by W&L that you provide in your thread and although I am sure the students are not racist, but I am troubled by the admission’s numbers of minorities over the past 5 years. I could almost buy WLPOPPA’s claim in your thread that Hispanic and African American SAT/ACT scores are too low for admission but the low admission trend continues with Asian Americans who on average have the highest SAT/ACT scores of all ethnicity. The admission rate of Asian and African Americans are not that different at W&L. If Woppa was correct that low test scores account for low African American admission rate then what would account for similar admission rate for Asian Americans? It is disturbing.</p>
<p>I’m Asian American and based upon the past 5 years, my acceptance rate is less than 10%. I’ll see what happens since, I applied and my ACT score is 33 putting me substantially above the W&L average. I hope you are wrong Goblue, but the numbers are not looking very good.</p>
<p>Goblue. </p>
<p>You aren’t searching very hard. And you are dead wrong.</p>
<p>Look at the common data sets for top 50 LAC schools like Bates (Asian 4% for example), Oberlin (5% Asian), Lafayette (4% Asian), Bucknell (3% Asian), Macalester, Holy Cross, Kenyon, etc, etc. You will find whites over represented at these and other top 50 schools with minorities, including Asians, under represented. Harvard on the other hand is at about 45% white and 55% minority which swings in the opposite direction. Some must be over represented by whites if some are under represented. That is a fact.</p>
<p>You are pulling supposed facts out of thin air. The actual data does not back you up in your assertion that W&L is the only top 50 LAC that is over represented by whites and under represented by minorities. In fact, your assertion is an outright fabrication which is directly debunked based on the actual data in the Common Data Sets that are located on each colleges website.</p>
<p>rlpak.</p>
<p>If your ACT is that high, your grades and class rank are high, you have good EC’s, you will be accepted.</p>
<p>My kid is at W&L. It is far from being a racist place. Are there racist kids there? I don’t know of any, but I would guarantee that there are some. But, I also guarantee you there are racists in every nook and cranny of this great land–unfortunately. There will always be stupid people so racism will never disappear. But, I do not believe for a second that W&L as an institution is racist.</p>
<p>I find it hard to believe that a racist administration would hire Daniel Wubah to be its new Provost in spring 2013.</p>
<p>And…good luck!</p>
<p>wlpoppa.</p>
<p>I never stated that W&L is a racist place. I only commented that the minority admission rate is troubling, especially the Asian American admission rate. Last year per the numbers reported by W&L, 514 Asians applied and only 50 were accepted for an admission rate of just 9.7%. During the same period, 2717 Caucasians applied but 937 were admitted for an admission rate of 34.5%. These admission rates are similar for the two groups over the last 5 years.</p>
<p>I am not willing to jump to any conclusions without additional information, but the difference in admission rates is huge and very disturbing. I hope you would agree that additional inquiry is needed to find out why there is such a discrepancy in admission rates. A few points in the admission rates would be a non-factor but where the admission rates differ by 350%, inquiry is needed.</p>
<p>Exactly. The fact that asians are accepted at 1/3 the rate of whites is very strange and shows that W&L is not trying to improve diversity… I understand that asians are overrep. at most unis but the least they can do is mirror the US demographics of asians (6% vs w&l’s 3%)
Wlpoppa, you are contradicting your own argument. You argue that statistically, Af. Americans+Hispanics score much lower than other groups on the SAT. Thus, I agree it makes sense that many minority applicants may be unqualified to attend W&L.
However, the same data also shows that asians score higher than ALL other groups, and score 70 points higher than whites on average!!! This is a very substantial score gap.
Thus, based on this data, asians should be accepted at the highest rate, followed by whites, followed by Hispanics+AfAm… However the opposite is true and whites are accepted THREE times as much as asians who likely have higher standardzed test scores. i understand that class rank+gpa is not accounted for, but we can safely assume that most asians are AT LEAST as academically qualified as white applicants, if not more qualified.
Also I find it strange that W&L would publish this data which puts them in such a negative light</p>
<p>alright I admit that I was wrong in that respect. However,W&L is ranked #14 among lacs and most of those that you mentioned are outside the top 20.
However, we are not just talking about asians. I think i am correct in saying that none of those schools have a white population of 87%
Also,when comparing W&L to its peer schools (LACs ranked 10-20) pretty much all these schools are in the 30% minority range, while W&L is not even half of that</p>
<p>I think you need to ask the administrator to delete this thread that you started. Blatantly calling a school and its administration racist with no proof. Only speculation. Shame on you.</p>
<p>I think the same^ this is a very misleading thread.</p>
<p>wlpoppa and 1prettykitty</p>
<p>Why does goblue need to take this thread down? Although I am not going to jump to conclusion without more information, the information he has provided tends to support his claim. If both of you cannot see that goblue has raised serious concerns then both of you are turning a blind eye.</p>
<p>Wlpoppa your assertion that the reason that less than 10% of African Americans are admitted is based upon your belief that African Americans in general have test scores 20% less than Caucasians. When goblue makes the same assertions about Asian Americans in coming to his conclusions. Asian Americans generally score better than every other ethnic group but in the case of WL, Asian Americans are admitted at a rate just above African Americans but at a rate 350% lower than Caucasians.</p>
<p>This is statistically improbable unless for some strange reason only the lowest performing Asian Americans are applying to WL. This I doubt, but without the data that WL has at its disposal, we can not make this conclusion.</p>
<p>Would you agree with Goblue if the data states that Asian Americans had better grades, SAT/ACT scores than their Caucasian counterparts but Asians were being admitted at only a 10% rate vs 35% Caucasians because that is what Goblue is asserting.</p>
<p>Goblue had started an important conversation that needs further inquiry.</p>
<p>I think several points were completely ignored. </p>
<p>Page 56 statistics cite only students who were accepted and enrolled. In major asian hubs ie. Asia, (inside the US: New York City and California) Washington and Lee is not the most well known name. Maybe thats why 50% of the applicants come from the south. Because Washington and Lee is a school that is an elite institution but students prefer a well known name (Pomona, Middlebury, Amherst) cross admits pick those schools over w&l. Less than 1/3 of admitted Asian males pick W&L but 50% of admitted white males pick W&L. Why admit more students who don’t want to go?</p>
<p>bayernmunich.</p>
<p>1st You did not read page 56 correctly. It states the number of Asian applicants, the number accepted and the number that enroll.</p>
<p>2nd What does enrollment rate have to do with admission rate? If you are correct that Asians enroll at less than a 1/3 then the opposite of low admission rate should be true. The admission rate of Asians should be higher.</p>
<p>3rd If a student applies they should be treated fairly in the admission process whether it is their first choice school or not.</p>
<p>Believe it or not these students did not apply wanting to be denied admission.</p>
<p>GoBLue, the issue of minority representation at W&L is complicated, much more than you know. I know this from the inside there.</p>
<p>As you may have seen, they inflate their application numbers by about 10% at present, till '13 it was 20%. They count Incomplete Applications in their total. If they did not include those apps the minority app numbers would be very different. I wish they would stop doing this but that is another topic.</p>
<p>They buy tens of thousands of names and target minorities, first generation college students, Pell grant students, Questbridge students, Jewish students, etc. Many of the names they buy are from students at schools with minimal college counseling resources. These students complete applications at a much lower rate than ‘traditional’ students. </p>
<p>The school accepts some students (with promise) who have incomplete applications. Many of these are minorities. They place some on the Wait List to see if they have long term interest, but know they don’t really.</p>
<p>48% of the student body receives financial aid. The average grant is nearly $40,000. That is a very generous number. With about 230 students receiving grants, about 115 are receiving more than $40,000. Most of the minority students are in the latter group. It has good resources but they are not infinite.</p>
<p>W&L has a beautiful campus and is in a pretty town but it is very, very isolated. The nearest big city is D.C., and that is 3+ hours away. There is virtually no minority cultural infrastructure in the town or anywhere in the surrounding area. That can seem very isolating. </p>
<p>The school brings many of the targeted groups to the campus at its expense for recruitment, and while the students usually enjoy their time there, once gone the isolation becomes more apparent. </p>
<p>By contrast, Amherst say, is in a major university town and not too far away from Boston. Williams is a bit more remote, but again it is not so isolated as to seem completely isolated. It is also in the northeast which has a higher concentration of asian minorities than the bread and butter states W&L draws from. </p>
<p>So, saying the school is racist is over the top. They try hard and spend/give a lot of money to try to get those kids. If they would stop adding in Incompletes to the total apps you would have a better picture of how many in those groups you are talking about really apply. </p>
<p>Also, the kids at this level, especially from some of those groups are highly targeted. We are a consumer society so they get many offers of admission and Money. They choose schools higher up the ladder. If W&L’s SAT’s were in the 1400/2100+ range it would become more attractive to students who pick schools based on stats like that. However, just because one is a good student (at that higher level than W&L) does not mean they would enjoy the W&L experience. It demands engagement, and not just in the classroom. Could they do better? Yes. Are they trying? Yes. Is it racist? Hardly.</p>
<p>bayernmunich31, Stating that only 1/3 of accepted asians choose to attend W&L is a meaningless assertation because the sample size is so small. Also, perhaps these accepted asian students attend the acceptance students day and realize firsthand how little diversity there actually is, and choose to attend a college with more diversity. It cant be easy for minority students to assimilate into the social life and atmosphere when 87% of the student body is the same race.
I am not trying to attack W&L. I am a prospective minority student and I have applied, but now I am skeptical of the entire college after seeing this info, because something is definately going on. Also, if there is a racial bias at W&L, I would assume it stems from the admissions office. I have not visited campus so I cannot comment on the student body.</p>
<p>Puzzle78.</p>
<p>Well what you say would make it more understandable why the Asian admittance rate is so low if the difference was not 350%. In order for your scenario to be true, the Asian applications would be incomplete in 2 out of 3 applications. I would like to see the data showing this. I hope that is the case but it seems unlikely that Asians would apply and not complete their application in such a high rate. There is a reason why Asians generally have the highest test scores and grades, they complete what they start.</p>
<p>As to the argument that WL is not a top tier school and not too attractive to kids who like high stat schools,this is based upon what? According to WL the average SAT is 1390 and ACT is 31. Those are the high tier stats just like you mentioned.</p>
<p>Anyways, everything you state is conjecture. WL needs to provide the data of minority students so we can see for ourselves what is going on during the admission process.</p>
<p>What would be your impression of WL if Goblue was proven right that higher stat Asians were being denied admission at a 10 to 1 clip versus lower stat Caucasians who are denied at a 3 to 1 clip???</p>
<p>The only other colleges where asians are accepted at a lower rate than other groups are at ivies+top 10 universities. They simply have TOO MANY overqualified asian students that they are forced to reject qualified asians in order to keep room for other racial groups.
However, the key difference is that most of these schools are approaching the 20% asian threshold. W&L is at 3%. They are rejecting qualified asians for some OTHER unknown reason, and I cannot think of any other possible reason other than racial bias. If anyone has any other explanation I would love to hear it.
I bring this point up because many people on here seem to applaud W&L for working hard to recruit minorities and increase diversity. The truth is that W&L has MORE THAN ENOUGH minority applicants to reach the diversity levels of top LACs like Amherst/Williams, but it simply chooses not to accept these applicants. The argument that the minorities are unqualified makes sense in theory, but how is every other top LAC dealing with this issue? Are you saying vassar (ranked 13 vs W&L 14) is accepting unqualified minority applicants, and that is how they have a 38% minority student body? The data DIRECTLY proves the opposite, because Vassar has almost triple the diversity of W&L while MAINTAINING HIGHER SATs/TOP DECILE PERCENTAGE THAN W&L</p>
<p>Puzzle,
Your logic makes sense for Hispanics+African Americans… Many of them attend underperforming high schools and may simply apply to W&L since they got a fee waiver from being targeted. I would actually agree with your analysis if it wasnt for the asian acceptance rate.
Asians score on average 70 points higher than whites and 367(!!!) points higher than Blacks.
Therefore, there is no way you can tell me that the asians that apply to W&L should only be accepted at a 3% higher rate than blacks, who on average score 400 points lower on that sat. That is a 2000 vs a 1600. Keep in mind, whites, who on average score 70 points LOWER than asians, are accepted at more than 4x the rate of asians (8% vs 35%)
I fail to see any possible non-racial reason for that gap.</p>
<p>Unless any of you happen to be admissions officers at W&L, you really have no idea what goes in the admissions process. You don’t know how they weigh different parts of an application, what factors they consider most important, or even how qualified the pool of applicants is. </p>
<p>Also, keep in mind that schools want to accept those qualified applicants who will most likely enroll. W&L is indeed a southern school, and is best known in the south. Their admissions officers know perfectly well that most qualified non-southerners who apply are almost certainly also applying to other big-name schools and will choose those schools over W&L if they get in to them. The south isn’t exactly known for it’s Chinatowns now is it? Most qualified applicants from there are going to be white and probably legacy, so those are the applicants they’re going to accept.</p>
<p>That being said, if you really think W&L is racist, just don’t apply. There is no lack of universities in America. No need to rant.</p>
<p>gutsandglory.
What is your relationship to W&L? You statements are AMAZING!!! and not in a good way.</p>
<p>You have single handedly taken race relations back 50 years.</p>