A few questions about M&T program and UPenn in general

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Pennsylvania
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Hi! I have a few questions about the M&T program and UPenn. I would appreciate it if someone could answer all of them. All of my research about colleges is done through such forums or university websites, so if something is wrong, I would be happy if someone corrected it.

  1. I have heard that after the freshman year, students aren't guaranteed on campus housing. Is this true for M&T program attendees too? On their wikipedia page, it says that they live in a different building altogether. But do they live in that building for the entire 4 years or do they have to undergo changes in housing too?
  2. How manageable is it to do 6 or 7 courses? I am pretty good at multitasking and stuff, but I have heard that the workload is quite a lot. How is the average student life in the M&T program? Say, I want to participate in a sport at the varsity level. With the workload of the program, will it be possible?
  3. On another post on CC, a person said that half of the M&T class is accepted through ED. Is that true?
  4. How is the UPenn campus in terms of getting around, style, etc.? I mean, I have seen photos, but I cannot find any proper videos/virtual tours online. Also, it would be better to hear from a current student or alumni about it.

I have a few more questions, but I guess that I’ll ask them once these questions get answered. Thanks in advance!

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I’m a recent M&T graduate.

  1. I've never heard of someone not getting on-campus housing if they want it. A good percentage of sophomores and up will live in Greek housing or will get an apartment in West Philly with friends. M&Ts don't actually live in a different building as freshmen, but instead are guaranteed a spot in Ware College House, which is part of the Quad.
  2. So honestly, most M&Ts can't 100% handle the combination of the overly intense academics, extracurriculars, and social life. Now, I don't mean that they literally can't handle it, but rather that they are forced to cut corners in one way or another—anything from not reading their textbooks to all-nighter cramming as the only form of studying to full-out cheating (unfortunately). Yes, most people at Penn do this because most people at Penn are super busy, but you see it more with M&Ts (even compared to other dual-degree programs at Penn).

One can argue that this immense pressure is a good thing because it encourages resourcefulness; you’ll quickly learn how to figure out what material you should focus on, and what material you should just glance at. But it sort of becomes a problem when you walk away from classes not having learned anything (and believe me, I’ve seen this a lot from some of my peers) due to the combination of fudging the problem sets and last-minute cramming.

I think a large part of this comes down to moral fiber and willpower. I don’t mean to make it sound like M&T is impossible or a bad idea, but that kind of high-pressure environment can facilitate not being true to one’s self with regards to academics.

It’s really, really unlikely that you’ll want to do a varsity sport plus M&T. I know of two M&T varsity athletes, and they were on “lower commitment” sports, fencing and crew. One of them I’m told is actually quite lazy with schoolwork; the other one is incredibly diligent, but he doesn’t socialize much to compensate.

To be clear, most M&Ts are heavily involved in the community. It would be insane to do M&T in four years, maintain a social life, partake in other extracurriculars (TAing, Wharton Investment and Trading Group, music / dance, etc.), and do a varsity sport. Not to sound like a dick, but I was completely tapped out between M&T, Greek life, TAing, a music group, and a couple other things. I was considering going to college for baseball, and I absolutely could not imagine what it would have been like to do M&T plus baseball, even with dropping a couple extracurriculars.

You’re welcome to go for it, but something will absolutely have to give. Some of the top academic performers in the world go to M&T, and they aren’t anywhere near capable of doing M&T with good grades, social life, extracurriculars, and varsity athletics. There just literally aren’t enough hours in the day.

EDIT: Judging from your posting history, you want to play varsity soccer? That’s probably a terrible idea. If this is something you really, really want to do, and you get into M&T and everything, you should considering taking five years to graduate at a minimum. That, or just playing club soccer. A good number of M&Ts play club sports.

  1. Yes.
  2. Super easy to walk. I was able to get from engineering classes to Wharton classes in under ten minutes, the length of our passing period. Campus is probably more logically laid out than any other university in the country due to Philadelphia's easy-to-understand grid system.
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  1. It's true that housing is not guaranteed in a year during which Penn overenrolled and had more students interested in housing than was available, they rented rooms in the Sheraton right next to campus and put students up in the hotel. So while Penn's on campus housing is not guaranteed in the technical sense, you can rest assured knowing that Penn will not leave you out to dry if you want university provided housing.
  2. Yeah, campus is really easy to get around. It is organized along an east-west axis that runs along the center of campus (Locust Walk). It is about 300 acres and yet super compact (within only about 10 city blocks) so it doesn't take long to get from one end to the other. Additionally, because the campus is distinct from the city around it, congestion is slightly reduced without average city pedestrians slowing your walk to class. And you are rarely, if ever, waiting for cars to pass because most of Penn's campus is a contiguous plot of land, distinct from the city around it and separated from actual city streets with cars.
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@“Keasbey Nights” Thank you for taking the time out to answer all my queries. Your elaborate answer is of a lot of help.

RE 1: So are M&Ts guaranteed a spot in that dorm for all 4 years?

RE Sports: I was anticipating that reply. However, I just want to continue playing in college. I’ll have a look at club sports.

@PennCAS2014 Thank you for answering. I really appreciate it.

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  1. No, but the Quad is almost exclusively freshmen; you wouldn't want to live there after freshman year anyway. There are other on-campus housing options if you want them, but it's cheaper and (in my opinion) more fun to live off-campus.
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I did not know that the Quad was mostly exclusive to freshmen. In that case, if at all I go there, I’ll definitely have a look at off campus housing.

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@saladass

Housing
What may not be clear from @keasbey Nights post is that the housing situation at Penn is different from other Universities. At a school like Berkeley or Columbia, guaranteed housing is important. At Penn, a lot of the “off campus” housing is closer to your classes than the “on campus” housing. Off campus housing is not a problem at all. Traditionally, freshmen live on campus and most sophomores, and up prefer to be off campus. This is not considered a drawback to Penn by students.

Sports
Some of the club sport athletes are very good. They are not intramural athletes. A good number of them could have participated in varsity college athletics and are just prioritizing academics, like you are.

Course load
@saladass “How manageable is it to do 6 or 7 courses?”

This really depends on the person and the particular courses. The best students will manage it, but they will still have to be careful about the combination of courses. It would not be possible, for example to take that many time consuming CS programming classes at once. That would definitely sink anyone; even @Keasbey Nights.

You have to remember that most CAS students only take 4 courses at a time and engineers and M & Ts usually take 5, so they are already being challenged a bit more. If you can manage 5 well, then 6 is probably doable, but 7 is a lot. It is common for special/dual program students to take a course of two during the summer to alleviate some of that pressure, depending on their particular situation.

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@Much2learn brings up a really good point. Not all schedules are created equally. My sophomore spring schedule was ACCT 102, CIS 320, CIS 371, FNCE 101, FNCE 205, MGMT 237, and STAT 431. 7 credits, and it was actually pretty straightforward; the only class that had a lot of work was CIS 371. On the other hand, my senior spring schedule was CIS 197, CIS 341, CIS 401, CIS 526, CIS 555, FNCE 250, and MKTG 101. (341 and 555 are considered the two hardest classes in the comp sci department; as you can tell, I’m great at planning.) Let’s just say that it’s a good thing I legitimately liked my classes that semester.

I actually think that most M&Ts take 6 credits for at least a few semesters.

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I would add that you only certain students can handle a load like that. Try a lighter load first and see how it goes. Also you will have to get approval from your Faculty Advisor to take so many in a semester.

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@Much2learn Will do. I was under the impression that most M&Ts take 7 credits per semester, ergo the question. Should I be privileged enough to attend UPenn next year, I’ll certainly seek advice from the advisors as well as other students before taking up such a workload.

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M&Ts shouldn’t ever need 7 credits per semester unless they are going above and beyond (i.e. pursuing some sort of minor, trying to triple concentrate in Wharton, submatriculating into a master’s program, etc.). I personally submatriculated and double-concentrated, hence the couple of semesters of seven classes.