<p>(This is my first post here; I'm not really sure where to post so please let me know if there is a better place)</p>
<p>I'm an international student from the UK that is trying to decide between Berkeley L&S and Economics at the LSE. Although I probably will be attending Berkeley instead of LSE in the fall (submitted SIR etc.), I'm regrettably still having a few doubts... I'd be really grateful to hear some of your thoughts with regard to the following:</p>
<p>1) LSE Economics has a very low admit rate - am I making a mistake in turning it down for Berkeley?</p>
<p>2) I am a little worried that Economics at Berkeley might not have the same depth as at LSE. For example, the introductory first year mathematical courses at LSE in the Econ program seem pretty advanced: MA100</a> Mathematical Methods ST102</a> Elementary Statistical Theory
Also, the third year options appear to be more advanced than the undergrad Econ courses offered at Berkeley (bear in mind that only 4 can be chosen, at the bottom the page): BSc</a> Economics - Economics - Degree Programmes 2011 - Undergraduate - Study - Home
How difficult is it to get into graduate courses at Berkeley to potentially compensate for this?</p>
<p>3) I am likely to have at least As in A-Level Maths and Economics when I arrive at Berkeley. I believe that these fulfill Math 1A and 1B, and Econ 1; does this mean they also fulfill course credit? Also, it seems that I can't enroll in upper division courses until the second semester, meaning that I might not be taking any Econ courses in my first semester. Is this true?</p>
<p>4) (I might get a quicker answer to this if I contact the dept. directly, but I thought I'd try here first) I'm interested in taking intermediate/advanced Japanese as soon as possible; I understand that you can enroll in these courses after passing a placement test... How likely is it that I can enroll in my first semester? Also, if I do directly enter an upper division course, am I missing course credit on the lower courses?</p>
<p>It appears that you should contact the instructors of Japanese 10A (or 100A based on your self-assessment above) who will work with you to assess which class to enroll into, you do that during phase I (i.e. now) not when you arrive if you want to take the course right away in Fall. They may require you to take the placement test when you arrive in fall, but they will allow you to register in the class during your phase I. The way that the registration is configured, you need an individual code from the instructor to register (or be a declared Japanese major). </p>
<p>For J10A the instructor is Noriko Komatsu (Wallace) <a href=“mailto:komatsu@berkeley.edu”>komatsu@berkeley.edu</a> +1 510 642-3480</p>
<p>and for J100A it is Wakae Kambara (who studied at Trinity College, BTW) <a href=“mailto:wkambara@berkeley.edu”>wkambara@berkeley.edu</a> +1 510 642-4755</p>
<p>If you enter a course like Japanese 100A directly, you don’t earn credits for J1A-B and J10A-B, but why would you? If you are entering the advanced level because you took Japanese classes at university level, those units get accepted as transfer credit. In any case, you don’t need to have all the predecessor courses to an upper division one. All you need are the courses required for your major and the general stuff like breadths and any explicitly stated predecessor. However, if you are granted advanced status by a placement exam, and if another class requires a more basic language class as it pre-req, you are deemed to have passed the pre-req.</p>
<p>2) when comparing a first year course at a UK university, keep in mind that the US and UK systems are different. The UK system is three years because the equivalent of our freshman year subjects are part of the pre-college education. Math 1A and 1B are fulfilled by your A levels because that material was part of your preparation. What you should be comparing is math ABOVE the initial calculus level, basically the advanced statistics courses and other higher math classes that you would take. </p>
<p>Pre-reqs and required courses are just the minimums, not the complete list of what you may take during the four years here. The number of units out of 120 that are prescribed with specific requirements is relatively low, giving you plenty of units you will take based on what you choose. If you want to dive into very advanced math, economics or whatever else, that is the opportunity you get here at UCB. </p>
<p>Since you have to take at least one of the math pre-req courses while at Cal, you will be taking statistics of some sort in your first semester and intermediate economic theory, at the end of that first semester you have completed pre-reqs and can apply to declare the major. </p>
<p>As far as more advanced courses or taking graduate level courses - if you are really ready and able, you should be able to get into those courses. Plus, you would likely be doing research if you will be performing at that level, thus working with masters and doctoral students, faculty and others.</p>
<p>unless you want to dive into another area of study (and at least minor in it), go to LSE for economics.</p>
<p>i picked berkeley over another UK university because i wanted to explore other disciplines besides science, and eventually pursue a double major. if not for that i would’ve gone straight to the UK and avoided the large number of required breadth courses.</p>
<p>think carefully about what you want from your university studies, basically ;)</p>
^Thanks for the clarification about enrolling in higher Japanese courses. Would you suggest taking lower courses to try and boost my GPA, or do you think this is a waste of time?
I’ll actually have done all the Further Maths Statistics modules at A-Level (i.e I’ve done everything listed under Stats 20), so I’d most likely want to take Stats 134 during my first semester to fulfill the one Math prereq course at Cal. But, here ([Prospective</a> Majors](<a href=“http://www.econ.berkeley.edu/econ/ugrad/prospect_prerequisites.shtml]Prospective”>http://www.econ.berkeley.edu/econ/ugrad/prospect_prerequisites.shtml)), it says, “Students may enroll in upper division economics coursework beginning in the second semester of their freshman year.” So I guess this means I won’t be taking any Econ courses in my first semester, unless I want to take Environmental Econ…? Do you know if this also applies to Math upper division courses?
How do they determine whether you are able to take graduate level courses? Although it is quite early to say, I’d say I’m pretty good at Econ (applied to Cambridge Econ, won an Econ essay prize at my school); how realistic is it that I will be able to work with faculty etc.?
I’m justifying going to Berkeley over LSE because I prefer the idea of a more well-rounded education. I want to achieve complete fluency in Japanese, and Cal’s Japanese program is much more substantial than what LSE offers. I regret not taking History or Politics at A-Level, so am hoping that I can take courses in these at Cal. I also quite like the idea of doing Psychology and Economic history courses so that I can criticise Economic theory on a more informed base. I’m quite serious about Econ at the moment (although I’m not sure I want to go to grad school yet), so I guess I’ll be minoring in Maths/Statistics. You mentioned pursuing a double major… how difficult might the workload be?</p>
<p>Although I am aware of the prestige of LSE Econ, I’m really not sure why some consider it to be superior to Econ at Cal. I understand that it’s difficult to rate undergrad Econ programs, but surely Cal is comparable (if not superior) to LSE when you consider research, faculty etc.?</p>
<p>Apologies for the length of my response; thank you for the discussion!</p>
<p>The language about not taking upper division courses in your first semester is a rule established by the Economics department, applicable only to their UD courses (Econ courses with numbers from 100-199), and only for those who come in with credit from A level exams. It is a restriction on taking those classes; it is not speaking of an intended Economics major avoiding any upper division coursework. Therefore, you are free to register for Stats 134 immediately, and any other UD courses for which you meet the conditions and pre-reqs, other than Economics UD classes. In fact, that is how you would be able to apply to the major toward the end of your first semester and once grades were recorded for the Stats class and your transfer credits are logged, they can evaluate and accept you. Becoming a declared student in the major is important, since many of the UD courses have very limited or no space for students who are not already declared in the major. </p>
<p>With your wide interests and desire to delve in several areas while at university, it sounds as if you are clearly making the right choice to fit your needs. Cal overall is typically listed in the small top group of internationally recognized schools, the list has Oxford and Cambridge Universities in the UK. It is the faculty, access to some of the best people in a field, huge span of the academic coursework and major frontline research underway, that earns this caliber of university its ranking. For someone who comes here to learn, to dive into the subject matter and to grow personally, it is an amazing place. For those that come to put in low effort and whose focus is solely on gaining a credential as easily as possible, other schools might be a better fit. For those who solely want depth in a single area, intended as the background for some profession, other schools might be a better fit. For intellectual pursuit and opportunities to learn, that is where you really value the Cambridge, Sorbonne, Harvard, Yale, Cal type of school.</p>
<p>Berkeley Economics is great and the faculty is extremely impressive - you won’t regret your decision. Since you can skip Math 1A/1B and Econ 1, you’re in a good position to start taking advanced math classes (Math 53/54) and the more mathematical core Econ classes (Econ 101A/101B). And there’s plenty of interesting upper divs to take if you see look at the class schedules.</p>
<p>@rider730
Thank you so much for your very informative responses. I’m a little disappointed I won’t be able to take Econ UD courses in my first semester - how might you respond to taking Econ 1 anyway just to boost my GPA (and revision purposes, given that it’s been nearly two years since I studied the basics)? Although the instructors probably have more to say about this, what do you think about doing this for Japanese?
Also, some of the UD Stats courses (such as 134A) list “one year of calculus” as their prereq. What exactly does this mean? Would Maths/Further Maths A-Level fulfill this?
You mentioned working with faculty, doctoral students etc. as an undergraduate… How widely is this done, and do I have a realistic chance of participating in research?
Thanks, I just had a look at Maths 53/54, but I am having a hard time in determining how my A-Levels might qualify as course credit - unlike the Econ dept., the Maths dept. page seems to have no mention of them. Would it be worth contacting the dept. to figure out whether Maths A-Level is equivalent to Math 1A/B?</p>
<p>Formally, one year of calculus would only require the Math 1A/Math 1B sequence and I am positive that your A level score qualifies you for the class. </p>
<p>For research, yes, it is not hard to find research opportunities here. It is one of the advantages of this University. If you search on research you should find many, many posts by people talking about their experiences seeking and securing research opportunities. </p>
<p>A number of people here have posted with their experiences taking supposedly easy classes as a GPA boost. Sometimes it misfires and you have the frustration of a B or B+ in a class that repeats something you already know well. It can even come out worse than that. </p>
<p>Some of the language departments look for students enrolling in an overly basic level - for example beginning Chinese classes attempted by native Chinese speakers. Since the SAT II foreign language tests are often used by native speakers of those languages to record a nice high score for the test, it is an obvious way to try to boost stats or GPA in this case. Thus, the departments that tend to see a lot of this, the ones with healthy sized populations of students who spoke the language at home or grew up in a country where it was the mainstream language, may check each registering student and force them to move up to the appropriate level as their first course in the department. </p>
<p>You certainly could retake courses like Econ 1 to try to boost your GPA, but it is just as easy to just start out with a light load, 13 or 14 units, and have the extra time free to do better in the classes you are actually taking. Since your grade in Stats 134 will be the pivotal information evaluated in your request to be accepted as an Economics major, personally I would focus my priorities on ensuring the best possible performance in that class. There are advantages to retaking it, including the chance to dive deeper into sections because you already have mastering the entire course to a certain level, or to perhaps get insights from the big picture which you are able to see when not having to cram in basic terms and concepts. It also gives you access to your professor from the department, who you can visit every week during his/her open office hours, potentially leveraging that person to recommend your admittance into the major or connecting you to research opportunities or just illuminating some very advanced corner of economics theory that has not yet even been written into advanced textbooks. I don’t think you can go wrong whatever you choose.</p>
<p>Your reasons are pretty sound (in my opinion at least ) so welcome to Cal! Haha. Well, you’ll have to deal with people thinking you’re nuts for the next few years of your life. Prepare a “speech” for it - that’s what I do.</p>
<p>As for a double major, it’s not difficult at all, especially if you’re going to take the full four years to do it. A double in three years is a little tougher, because you’ll be maxing out your units every semester, but if you’re willing to put in the effort, it’s fine. I’d suggest taking at least one summer session, actually, to lessen the load in the regular semesters. As an international student, you’re paying about $17000 a semester for ~17 units. That’s $1000 a unit. In summer, one unit’s around $250.</p>
<p>By the way: an A Level in Maths covers Math 1A/1B. Go straight to Math 53.</p>
<p>Dude…I would definitely prefer London School of Economics over Berkeley. C’mon man. LSE is d-a-m-n. It is bloody hard and insane to get into it. If you are soo crazy about learning Japanese, why don’t you do an intern instead in Japan? (beware of the earthquakes though).</p>
<p>No seriously. When you get the best in your own country, why do you have to shell out soo much for the ‘not so best’ in another country? LSE is waay better than Harvard. At least, in terms of brand value.</p>
<p>@rider730
Great, thanks again for the helpful post. I think I’ll stick with the “safer” route of skipping Econ 1 (and likely LD Japanese) in favour of a lighter load in the first semester, given that I’m unsure about the strength of the student body and the possibility that I struggle to adjust in the first semester. Hopefully getting top grades in A-Level Econ (as well as Stats 134) will grant me entry into the major in the second semester, at which point I can start interacting with professors, taking UD classes, pursuing research etc. </p>
<p>@meakame
Thanks for the information. At the moment I’m thinking of maybe a double minor in Maths/Statistics/Japanese/Philosophy (maybe), but it’s probably early to be making these choices. I’d definitely prefer for people not to think I’m “nuts” for the next few years, but I guess I can live with it… There definitely do seem to be cases of people turning down HYPSM (maybe not H) for Berkeley, but these mainly seem to be for financial reasons, which have nothing to do with my choice. Although, LSE is not on the same par as HYPSM. I’ve heard of a guy who I think is turning down Cambridge for UCL, which is a FAR bigger call than the choice I’m making, so I should probably stop worrying…
I wouldn’t say LSE is “bloody hard” to get into; almost everyone in my school applying for Economics got in this year. As long as you get over 8A*s at GCSE you stand a very good chance of getting in. “LSE is waay better than Harvard in terms of brand value”? Come on, really?</p>
<p>Wait a minute, it says here ([Prospective</a> Majors](<a href=“http://www.econ.berkeley.edu/econ/ugrad/prospective.shtml]Prospective”>Applying to the Economics Major | Department of Economics)) “Non-transfer students must apply to the major prior to reaching 80 units of post-high school coursework (including in-progress courses), or at the beginning of their fifth semester (not including summers) of post-high school coursework, whichever comes second.”
Are upper divison classes in the second semester really feasible without being a declared student in the major?</p>
<p>Okay… I think you’re worrying too much. You take the macro and micro econ courses (Econ 100A/B or Econ 101A/B) before or while applying to the major. Those are prerequisites for most econ upper divs, but you don’t need to officially be in the major to enroll in any classes. It’s really pretty flexible and they make exceptions to rules pretty liberally (and don’t even check if you actually took the prereqs).</p>
<p>Look on the schedules to see the classes offered and the prereqs. Econ upper divs usually aren’t too difficult to get into either. I’ve been waitlisted a few times but have always gotten in.</p>
