A few questions

[boneh3ad]

<p>John,</p>

<p>At no point did I say that Princeton engineers were nowhere nearly as qualified as those of “my state school”</p>

<p>At no point did I say that Princeton engineers were not taught engineering properly</p>

<p>I did say that Cornell was a better engineering school, and that was based on my own experience with engineers from each school, as well as the experiences of my colleagues.</p>

<p>Now, I would love to see you prove that the average Princeton grad paid less than what I did at UIUC (“my low budget state school”). Just as a fun exercise:</p>

<p>Estimated Cost of Attendance:
UIUC: $31,810 ([University</a> of Illinois Financial Aid: Undergraduate Resident 2010-2011 Cost](<a href=“http://www.osfa.uiuc.edu/cost/undergrad/res_1011.html]University”>http://www.osfa.uiuc.edu/cost/undergrad/res_1011.html))
Princeton: $50,620 ([Princeton</a> University | Fees & Payment Options](<a href=“http://www.princeton.edu/admission/financialaid/cost/]Princeton”>http://www.princeton.edu/admission/financialaid/cost/))</p>

<p>Multiply that by 4 years, and:
UIUC: $127,240
Princeton: $202,480</p>

<p>I would say there is a significant difference there. My point with all of the cost stuff is that if UIUC and Princeton had engineering departments of identical quality, you would get the same education for less at UIUC. However, most people would agree that UIUC is the better school, and as such, you are actually getting more for less. That was my point when bringing up cost.</p>

<p>And in light of your recent post, I really don’t know why you claim that I am saying that state school engineers are better in general than Princeton engineers. I can name a handful of state schools with better engineering programs than Princeton (UIUC, Purdue, Michigan, Berkeley, Georgia Tech, for example), but that is hardly EVERY states school. You are, once again, putting words in my mouth, and doing so in a most uncivil manner.</p>

<p>Could you please stop ignoring the topic at hand? I know that you don’t want to upset the natural order of things (that Princeton rules the world in all things, of course) but don’t you think it is possible that maybe not all state schools are bad? What exactly is it that you have against state schools in general?</p>

<p>I have no doubt that Princeton has some top people in their departments. In fact, I know they do, especially in the more mathematical branches of engineering. And sure, I bet you got a great education at Princeton in ChE and I am sure they trained you to be a productive engineer. I never said that they didn’t, so I don’t know why you insist that I said that.</p>

<p>I really don’t honestly understand why you are taking such huge offense to this. I didn’t call you incompetent or dumb or anything. I am merely stating my opinion, and it is an opinion that quite a few people share. I am sorry if you don’t agree with it, but if you take this kind of offense every time someone doesn’t agree with you, then you are in for a long, angry life. Try not to take things so personally. So some people don’t think that Princeton’s engineering school is elite, big deal! Go out and prove them wrong! If you keep acting the way you have been in this thread, all you are going to do is reinforce their opinions. Ivy leaguers already have a reputation (fair or not) for being snooty and unable to admit that the world doesn’t revolve around the Ivy League, and so far, you have not done anything to make that reputation seem less than true.</p>

[rocketDA]

<p>johnadam12-
i apologize for saying that you are so scattered. i went back and reread the last 4 pages and have found the root causes to this perception:</p>

<p>1) post 29 seems sarcastic
2) posts 47,48 you are responding to “happy” but i thought you were a crazy person who just liked to start your sentences off by saying ‘happy’.
3) post 47 i didn’t understand why you would bring up these other fields (math/physics/econ) to qualify the caliber of engineering. this is like me saying that germany is awesome at luge and therefore by association they must be great at speedskating.
4) can you please put quotes at the top of your posts so that one doesn’t read your post in sequence and wonder why it makes little sense and then read the text you were responding to after? this is some serious brain scramble.</p>

<p>//////</p>

<p>Alright, so now that I understand your argument (took quite awhile), I have a few things to point out:
I think it is quite pretentious how you keep driving home that boneh3ad got a “low budget state school degree” (post 59, among others). To be quite honest, I don’t really even remember where boneh3ad went but that doesn’t matter. I’ll tell you why: Because there is a sizable chance that his state school was better than Princeton undergrad engineering. There are some fantastic programs at state schools out there and some students find that they absolutely thrive in that environment. Just because you went to a fancy school (that I primarily associate with Bruce Wayne more than anything else thanks to Batman Begins) doesn’t mean you have the right to use your school’s name recognition/reputation to jack up the quality of your degree. You need to demonstrate your program’s quality… and that means numbers, facts, and figures regarding graduate placement… NOT US News rankings. Those guys don’t know what to look for… I actually was one of the students that they interviewed for my school and am the guy that yelled “omg, I got an A!” as a tour was coming by. That made it into the magazine and online report. Lol…</p>

<p>So I, like you, paid around $50k/year for my undergraduate education in engineering. My degree was in “General Engineering” and I’ve been doing a lot of thinking of what the degree means to me and whether it was worth nearly $200k. To be honest, in some ways it was worth it… but I think that may have been unique to my situation. However, I’ve seen no evidence that Princeton undergraduate engineering has super bright and passionate students. Do you ever compete in ICM/MCM competitions? What about elite engineering job placement? What about PhD productivity?</p>

<p>The bigger question to me is why any amazing high school student would choose Princeton undergrad engineering in place of, say, MIT, Caltech, Olin, or HMC if he/she is so qualified? Now, if you want to argue the strength of Princeton undergrad against MIT, Caltech, or HMC that would be a fun argument which would inevitably send you home with your tail between your legs. There is no way in hell that Princeton is even in the sam tier as these schools for engineering. The students who attend these schools are a different breed. We “own” the subject.</p>

<p>I think the answer to my aforementioned question is that the general “prestige” of the school is more important to these students than the quality of the program. Anyone who is a real techer would rather get their a$$ kicked in a tech school than go to an Ivy knowing that it isn’t the hardest program they could have gone through. Our strive is for excellence… hell, beyond excellence: “ownership” of the material.</p>

<p>So why did you attend Princeton? Are you really going to put Princeton above MIT? Caltech? Olin? Harvey Mudd? In that case, it really isn’t so amazing is it? Why should it be so much better than a great state school? </p>

<p>The point here is that we don’t know where these schools exactly stand against each other but saying that you paid the premium for the best is not a real argument here. If you wanted pay the premium for the best you should have gone to a tech school. I’m sure that boneh3ad got a pretty damn good education especially in terms of value. In some ways I’m jealous, having paid that premium.</p>

[rocketDA]

<p>And now that boneh3ad has refreshed my memory about UIUC, this has gotten a lot more juicy.</p>

<p>John, do you know how good of a school UIUC is? This school is recognized as having a very strong engineering and applied science program…among the top. I’d actually now confirm that this “budget state school” is definitely an incredible value…and arguably has a stronger engineering reputation than Princeton at half the cost.</p>

[JohnAdams12]

<p>bone, the beauty of message boards is that I can copy/paste what you posted. No more, no less…we will let the facts speak for themselves</p>

<p>I will do this later</p>

<p>

At no point did I say that Princeton engineers were nowhere nearly as qualified as those of “my state school”</p>

<p>At no point did I say that Princeton engineers were not taught engineering properly</p>

<p>I did say that Cornell was a better engineering school, and that was based on my own experience with engineers from each school, as well as the experiences of my colleagues.

</p>

[JohnAdams12]

<p>bone, I find it strange that as an engineer, you don’t look at the details…</p>

<p>read what I posted again and read what you just posted below. </p>

<p>I specifically stated that:</p>

<p>

regarding cost of Princeton, I don’t understand why you continue to bring this up, but my guess is that a majority of students that graduate with a Princeton Engineering degree end up paying less than what you paid for your low budget state school degree.

</p>

<p>this is what you posted</p>

<p>

Now, I would love to see you prove that the average Princeton grad** paid less **than what I did at UIUC (“my low budget state school”). Just as a fun exercise:</p>

<p>Estimated Cost of Attendance:
UIUC: $31,810 (University of Illinois Financial Aid: Undergraduate Resident 2010-2011 Cost)
Princeton: $50,620 (Princeton University | Fees & Payment Options)</p>

<p>Multiply that by 4 years, and:
UIUC: $127,240
Princeton: $202,480</p>

<p>I would say there is a significant difference there. My point with all of the cost stuff is that if UIUC and Princeton had engineering departments of identical quality, you would get the same education for less at UIUC. However, most people would agree that UIUC is the better school, and as such, you are actually getting more for less. That was my point when bringing up cost.

</p>

<p>Now, did you notice the emphasis on “paid” by the student versus what the school charges?</p>

<p>the fact is that the majority of Princeton’s engineers are on scholarship and Princeton now does not even give out loans, it is full scholarship and grants up to the EFC. </p>

<p>I continue to state that it is my guess that the majority of Princeton engineers paid less for their education than those from your school, Univ. of Illinois., after the scholarships are taken into consideration…There are very few schools, if any, that give more financial aid than Princeton.</p>

<p>a little hint:</p>

<p>Endowment
Princeton = 12.614 Billion
Illinois = 1.112 Billion</p>

<p>Total Students
Princeton = 7,592
Illinois = 43,246</p>

<p>Endowment per Student
Princeton = $1.661 million
Illinois = $25,713</p>

[boneh3ad]

<p>Until you provide concrete numbers to prove it I refuse to believe that the average Princeton engineering student gets half or more of their costs paid. Show me numbers and I will concede the point, but until you do, there is nothing to prove you aren’t just blowing smoke.</p>

<p>I also eagerly await your post that you will make later showing where I said all of those things **without[\b] taking things out of context or quoting things that were later clarified.</p>

[JohnAdams12]

<p>What the University of Ilinois Engineer (boneh3ad) said about Princeton University Engineering:</p>

<p>

3. Cornell is the only Ivy that I would consider to be excellent in engineering. Princeton is a semi-distant second.

</p>

<p>

I stand by my opinion with the addendum that Princeton is a wonderful engineering school if you want a non-traditional job after graduation like investment banking or some of those other uber-lucrative Wall Street jobs. For technical positions, Cornell is better, as are many other schools. It is not the #12 technical engineering program.

</p>

<p>

Exactly. I said Cornell is excellent. Semi-distant second doesn’t mean terrible, it just means “not excellent” and not really that close to being excellent.</p>

<p>Additionally, I don’t really care too much about rankings. They usually put a school in the correct rough area of where they should rank, but I base my opinion much more on what sort of research they put out and what quality of engineers they produce. Princeton is not really close to Cornell in that respect in my experience, as well as the experience (it seems) of most of the other people on this board.</p>

<p>Princeton is great if you want to do non-engineering stuff with an engineering degree, and sure, you can do the more traditional technical stuff, too, but there are still many schools that are better when it comes to the technical side of things. If you removed the effect of investment banking and other similar careers from the equation, I bet Princeton’s rank would fall significantly (my guess would be in the low to mid 20’s range).

</p>

<p>

They gve superb math and applied math program. So you would imagine they have a quality engineering program, but they aren’t at the level of Cornell and they, in my opinion, are overrated

</p>

<p>

Basically, that is 40% of the total score for Princeton that gets artificially increased by factors that don’t really have to do with the quality of the program or can be watered down by other factors. In fact, Princeton is a wonderful example of some of the weaknesses of the US News rankings and why they cannot be used as the sole indicator of program quality, as has been discussed in the news, on this forum, and in the engineering community ad nauseum.</p>

<p>Now, Princeton has a good program, and that is why I don’t think it would fall far if the rankings were adjusted some. I personally consider being ranked in the 20’s to be good. However, while it is an elite school, it really is not an elite engineering program.

</p>

<p>

Personally, I don’t believe that using only peer evaluation is good for anything other than placing schools into their relative tiers, and exactly where those tiers fall is up for debate. In my opinion, regardless of where those tier lines are drawn, Princeton belongs in the tier below Cornell.</p>

<p>I can also say that considering the sheer amount of money you have to pay to go to Princeton, you can get an engineering education at plenty of better programs for less money.

</p>

<p>

I, along with more than just a few other people, think that one of those schools that is overrated happens to be Princeton.

</p>

<p>

I said that I, along with lots of other people, feel that Princeton is overrated, at least when it comes to the purely technical side of engineering.

</p>

<p>

I will go ahead and stand by my claim that the rankings are inherently imperfect, and that Princeton is overrated in the rankings, despite still having a good engineering program

</p>

<p>

And no, I am not saying that because it is more expensive, it produces worse engineers. I am saying that it DOES produce worse engineers than, say, Purdue, yet is nearly twice the price. You would get more bang for your buck at Purdue. Stop putting words in my mouth and letting your anger cloud your sense of reason.

</p>

<p>

I said that Princeton’s engineering department is overrated in my opinion, and in the opinion of many other people.

</p>

[JohnAdams12]

<p>Princeton University</p>

<p>Average need-based scholarship and grant award 2009-2010 = $33,671</p>

<p>Percent of Freshman class receiving need-based scholarships and granst = 56%</p>

<p><a href=“http://registrar.princeton.edu/university_enrollment_sta/common_cds2009.pdf[/url]”>http://registrar.princeton.edu/university_enrollment_sta/common_cds2009.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

[JohnAdams12]

<p>note to above, </p>

<p>the average grant of $33,671 is for students with Familly Income of $120,000 to $140,000:</p>

<p>[Princeton</a> University | Who Qualifies for Aid?](<a href=“http://www.princeton.edu/admission/financialaid/how_it_works/who_qualifies/]Princeton”>http://www.princeton.edu/admission/financialaid/how_it_works/who_qualifies/)</p>

<p>for students with Family Income of $60,000 and below,the average is $47,350</p>

[boneh3ad]

<p>Well, while you have shown me some pretty impressive stats on grants (and I mean that sincerely), you still haven’t show a point where I said Princeton engineers are nowhere near a qualified as any other school or that they aren’t taught engineering properly.</p>

<p>I have repeatedly and admittedly said that I believe Princeton to be overrated and Cornell to be a better engineering program. In fact, I have said repeatedly that Princeton is a good engineering program, just not an excellent one. At no point have I said Princeton engineers are grossly underqualified. You are seriously just overreacting because you can’t stand the idea that Princeton isn’t number 1 in something like they are in a bunch of other things. It’s okay though. The great thing about engineering is you can still be more than qualified even coming from a mediocre program, and Princeton is much better than mediocre.</p>

<p>Now I ask you again to please quit putting words in my mouth and taking things out of context. Also, might I suggest you get some sleep? You were up pretty late trying to spin my posts!</p>

[RacinReaver]

<p>I’m starting to wonder if JohnAdams is a ■■■■■ trying to make Princeton’s alumni look bad.</p>

[DunninLA]

<p>JohnAdams12 is not a Princeton alum. Search on threads he/she has originated in the past three months. JohnAdams12 is either a high school senior/college applicant, or spends 10-15 hours per week asking specific, detailed admissions/financial aid questions on about 15 colleges on this board for someone else…</p>

<p>My guess is he/she is a CA resident high school senior who applied to about 15-20 colleges (8 UCs are knocked out with one app) with an intended chemistry or chemical engineering major, and has become obsessed with the college selection process. If you read his/her posts carefully, in hundreds of posts not one hint of personal information has ever been shared regarding age, gender, geographic location, stats … NOTHING other than obsessive inquiries about EXACTLY when admissions decisions are published, and how financial aid is handled … and other questions only applicants to college would be concerned with.</p>

[boneh3ad]

<p>Well, I did browse through his/her posts to try and get some background on who I am dealing with, and there is one where he/she claimed to be a ChE from Princeton who got (or is getting) and MBA at Stanford, so I was going off of that. The mix of other posts does seem odd, though.</p>

[JohnAdams12]

<p>boneh3ad your posts speak for themselves:</p>

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1064625579-post67.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1064625579-post67.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>nothing more, nothing less</p>

<p>regarding my posting in other college threads, I am doing it for young relatives and relatives of friends that are looking into colleges of different levels, no more, no less.</p>

<p>regarding this comment by you:</p>

<p>

You are seriously just overreacting because you can’t stand the idea that Princeton isn’t number 1 in something like they are in a bunch of other things.

</p>

<p>at no point did I ever state that I believed Princeton’s Engineering department overall is #1.</p>

<p>my posts were in reaction to your deragatory comments about Princeton Engineers and its program, no more, no less</p>

[vblick]

<p>

I’m starting to wonder if JohnAdams is a ■■■■■ trying to make Princeton’s alumni look bad.

</p>

<p>lol</p>

<p>He’s doing a bang up job!</p>

[boneh3ad]

<p>John,</p>

<p>Aside for the few where you have actually provided some useful information, you posts in this thread have been mostly asinine and tend to miss the point of the discussion at hand.</p>

<p>You are correct in that my posts speak for themselves. I said repeatedly that I thought that Princeton was overrated in engineering and that Cornell has a better department. I have never denied that fact. However, nowhere in any of those posts that you quote does it show me saying that Princeton engineers are not taught correctly are that they are grossly under-qualified to do their jobs, as you have repeatedly claimed.</p>

<p>My derogatory comments have includes such things as: “Princeton is overrated for undergraduate engineering”, “Cornell has a better department than Princeton”, and there are “There are other schools, including state schools, that are better in engineering than Princeton.” I suppose those are derogatory, but they are hardly inflammatory and would not illicit the responses you have given from any reasonable person. I have also said things in support of Princeton’s engineering department, including: “Princeton has a good engineering department” and “the more purely math-based branches of engineering at Princeton are excellent.” I am paraphrasing, of course, because I don’t feel like paging through the 5 pages of bologna that precedes this right now, but those are the general ideas of some things I have said.</p>

<p>So yes, my posts do speak for themselves. When you look at all of my posts, you can see that I do have respect for Princeton Engineering, despite the fact that I think that Cornell is better along with a host of other schools. In fact, I believe I said earlier that I thought Princeton belonged around 20 or so. Being ranked 20 out of over 600 ABET accredited programs is nothing to scoff at. I don’t really understand how you have come to the conclusion that I think that Princeton engineers are under-qualified and of overall poor quality, as I never said anything to that effect.</p>

[JohnAdams12]

<p>bones, you seem to have forgotten these comments from you:</p>

<p>

I stand by my opinion with the addendum that Princeton is a wonderful engineering school if you want a non-traditional job after graduation like investment banking or some of those other uber-lucrative Wall Street jobs.

</p>

<p>

It is not the #12 technical engineering program.

</p>

<p>

it just means “not excellent” and not really that close to being excellent.

</p>

<p>

Princeton is great if you want to do non-engineering stuff with an engineering degree

</p>

<p>

If you removed the effect of investment banking and other similar careers from the equation, I bet Princeton’s rank would fall significantly (my guess would be in the low to mid 20’s range)

</p>

<p>

…in my opinion, are overrated

</p>

<p>

In fact, Princeton is a wonderful example of some of the weaknesses of the US News rankings

</p>

<p>

while it is an elite school, it really is not an elite engineering program.

</p>

<p>

I, along with more than just a few other people, think that one of those schools that is overrated happens to be Princeton

</p>

<p>

Princeton is overrated, at least when it comes to the purely technical side of engineering

</p>

<p>

I am saying that it DOES produce worse engineers than, say, Purdue

</p>

<p>

I said that Princeton’s engineering department is overrated in my opinion

</p>

[boneh3ad]

<p>After that post, it seems pretty clear that you aren’t even reading what I say. Good day, sir.</p>

[JohnAdams12]

<p>bones, of course I am reading what you said</p>

<p>and this is what you said:</p>

<p><a href=“http://snipurl.com/commentsbybones[/url]”>http://snipurl.com/commentsbybones&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

[aGGieENGiNeeR]

<p>John, he is in a long and roundabout way trying to tell you that he will have his opinions and you will have yours. He isn’t the one instigating this argument, you repeatedly quote the same things he has said over and over again to the point that you are making yourself look like a fool.</p>