A Hard Test in College Finances

Parents Forum
81

<p>Kristof got a lot of mail about last week's piece. She addresses some of the questions that were also raised here:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-perfin16sep16,1,582904.column?coll=la-headlines-business&ctrack=1&cset=true%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-perfin16sep16,1,582904.column?coll=la-headlines-business&ctrack=1&cset=true&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>"It doesn't make much sense to me for you to take your daughter on an expensive trip only to then tell her that she can go to a private school only if she takes out massive loans. I personally don't think you should have gone unless you were willing to pay most or all of the tuition. I know of parents who took their kid on a similar tour, but when they returned, in love with some Eastern school, the parents said it was too expensive.</p>

<p>Kristof comment: My kids have known what I planned to pay for their college bills since they were pre-teens. The choice of college is theirs. As a parent, it's my role to teach them how to make decisions -- not to make decisions for them. I think this is particularly important for an 18-year-old, who can drive, vote, marry and sign contracts -- without ever asking me for advice. "</p>

82

<p>If possible, I have even less respect for her now.</p>

83

<p>Yeah, just a big unfeeling. Ouch! I did think she was a good guy who was going to pony up. Entrapping kid into a massive debt load doesn't seem very thoughtful does it?</p>

84

<p>I'm no expert in personal finance, but allowing an 18-year-old to take on a $120,000 debt seems like the worst possible course of action to sanction. I'll bet the ex is seething. It's going to land in his lap --- allowing daughter to take on massive debt and cosigning for it or paying much more than the earlier agreed upon "share" of college costs. The writer will likely stick to her $10,000 per year only contribution and continue to spout this phony "it's her decision" (and now dad's) line of BS.</p>

85

<p>I don't know of any bank that will lend that kinda money to an 18 year old without parental gurantee. Again, she's just an ignorant author.</p>

86

<p>Epiphany--I'm with you on the "if you're in the neighborhood" but this trip to the east coast was described as "the grand tour" and the implication was that the primary purpose was to look at schools that cost more than the author was willing to pay for her daughter to attend. That's what I find disturbing. I'm glad somebody called her on it..it is revealing that her response was "so what." I'm with EMM1--she's even more horrible than I thought she was.</p>

87

<p>Putting Samantha in a $45,000/yr private university could be doable for this family. (Granted I'm making some assumptions that seem reasonable to me, but might not have basis in fact). </p>

<p>If mom and dad have already saved the $80,000 that they agreed to contribute, then that leaves $100,000 for the 3 of them to come up with. If mom and dad can each pay $45,000 more by refinancing their respective homes, amoritizing the cost over a 30-year mortgage period, and reaping the interest deduction benefit, their increased monthly loan payment may be quite reasonable. That would leave a $10,000 loan for their daughter to cover.</p>

88

<p>
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Why? Class sizes can be massive, teaching assistants are in charge of many required courses, some professors are more interested in publishing papers than enlightening students, and the school is so big that students must be very disciplined to avoid getting lost in the shuffle.

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</p>

<p>Ick. Ick. Ick. So tired of these stupid stereotypes! </p>

<p>First of all, there's nothing that says grad. students will be bad professors. In the last two semester and this current one, I've had a few grad. student professors, even one for a 300-level class. Two were among the best instructors I've had, and I've had some amazing ones thus far. They were entertaining, engaging, knowledgable, and accessible (in fact, one has since left the university on a new job, and we still keep in occassional contact as "friends"). One I didn't really care for, but that class would have been so very "un-fun" taught by anyone one, as that's just how it was designed to be. Also, massive class sizes? Yeah, okay, some of them, not all of them./ Even in the large ones, though, you can ask questions--It's a common occurence in my 200+ person bio class, where the professor is (somewhat unrealistically, imo) dedicated to encouraging class participation through discussion, clickers, and student questions. One of my professors in a ~85 person class actually figured out who I was based on my quiz responses (how I have no idea) and came up to compliment me in person after class.</p>

<p>Professors interested in publishing? You'll find that anywhere. Most PhDs see themselves as being scholars, not teachers, so they want to research; after all, they spent a decade or more in higher education learning how to do just that! Even professors at smaller schools will often place a prime on research so that they can move up in the higher education "market." However, research does not mean that a professor is unwilling to be around students or teach.</p>

<p>Anyone can get "lost in the shuffle" at any school. I have a good friend who is a bit lost in the shuffle at her tiny (2000 person) LAC while I'm not really at my school with a much larger (but not UCLA-sized) population. If you want to stick out, you can anywhere; if you don't, you don't have to. Will a smaller scvhool make it easier? yeah, probably. But a larger school won't make it impossible....</p>

89

<p>Re Post 86 (Mombot). That's what I get for not doing my homework. :)</p>

<p>mythmom, sometimes I can "hear" the accents in the posts. ;)</p>

<p>Re Post 85: I kind of agree with blue, re student ceilings. Perhaps that's why, from my perspective, such a side trip would not be so risky: in our case the amount of loan(s) which various institutions would extend, & for which I could additionally qualify & would be willing to take on, would be insufficient to cover, in any case. D2 is well informed about this. (Recently she asked about loans; I filled her in to that effect.)</p>

90

<p>Epiphany, you and I qualify for need based aid -- that means we could set a dollar limit based on our EFC,tell our kids to look anywhere, and let them know that attendance was based on getting sufficient financial aid to meet or come close to the EFC. So in a sense, we had the luxury of letting college decision be made by the financial aid office. My own EFC is significantly below the COA for even an in-state public, so we were going to be looking closely at that need-based award no matter where my d. headed off to college.</p>

<p>From the follow-up article, Kristof has made clear that she does not qualify for need-based aid and hasn't even done the first step of looking into how that works:
[quote]
Kristof comment: Although I know I don't qualify for federal aid, I can't yet know whether we'll receive need- or merit-based aid from the individual schools because Samantha hasn't yet applied for or been offered any, so I thought such discussions premature. But merit aid is available to many good students and may make a compelling difference. I'll let you know when we know.

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<p>Obviously Kristof's statement betrays a woeful ignorance about the system or how to look for aid -- characterizing such discussion as being "premature" until after the daughter applies to colleges -- which would be excusable for a newbie to CC, but is a shocking level of ineptitude for an author who wrote a book on college financing. </p>

<p>So while I would have tended to concur with those who thought she was engaging in a little poetic license to tell a good story with the first column, the second column tells me that those who condemn her parenting skills when it comes to the college search and selection process are quite correct. </p>

<p>Yes, it is the kid's choice, but then the parent can say: "We can't afford that school even if you did get in, so if you want to visit you'll have to pay your own way and get there on your own." At least when my bullheaded daughter fell in love with pricey east coast colleges -- I didn't share the experience or the love. Kristof is giving mixed messages to her daughter when she says it is the kid's choice but then waxes eloquent about the attractions of Georgetown.</p>

91

<p>true, calmom (your first paragraph). I think this is why I get less exercised than some -- letting individual circumstances set these limits. The various forms of institutional need aid will either be there or they won't, thus providing built-in limitations. </p>

<p>I've always felt that if I had the funds but my EFC were too high for 'comfort' (or what I consider my safety level), I would merely tell D what I could & could not afford -- as we have for every other expense in our lives. It's just that I believe that ultimately it must be the student's choice at which institution to apply those funds. That would mean that she could choose to use them for Dream School or have them stretch further for less dreamy school. One person's slight preference may be another person's true passion & realistic fit. That's why I believe that generalizations are not appropriate when it comes to 'affordability.' What's more expensive? Re-starting a college effort if unhappy at a school of a parent's "choosing"? Or getting it right the first time? I have seen this happen more than once. The cost can be greater in both dollars & time, depending on the contrast in choices & the individual student's direction.</p>

<p>I believe in saying, "I have X dollars to help you out in college. You may use those dollars at a public, at a private, at a trade school." Some families even say, btw, that if the student selects an economical public, the parents are willing to help out with grad school funds -- trading one support for another.</p>

92

<p>Quote:
Kristof comment: Although I know I don't qualify for federal aid, I can't yet know whether we'll receive need- or merit-based aid from the individual schools because Samantha hasn't yet applied for or been offered any, so I thought such discussions premature. But merit aid is available to many good students and may make a compelling difference. I'll let you know when we know.</p>

<p>Is there ANY merit aid at Georgetown or Tufts (her daughter's dream schools)? I haven't looked, but even if there is some, it would be only for someone truly spectacular.</p>

<p>The failure of this woman to make even the most basic inquiries is almost beyond belief.</p>

93

<p>Yes, it is the kid's choice -- but I think where some people have a problem is with the parent who has no intention of paying taking a "grand tour" of elite east coast colleges. I mean... I personally sounded like a broken record extolling the virtues of UC Santa Cruz & Santa Barbara, my d. was ticked at me for a solid year for "not having faith in her" -- but the point is, as a budget-minded momma, I kept my input focused mostly on affordable options. Did I also help my d come up with a list of good privates? yes... but I also encouraged less selective colleges where merit aid was a good possibility. </p>

<p>Based on my input and the lovely brochures, when she got on a plane to the east coast for her first series of visits, Goucher was her #1 choice. Of course that changed the minute she set foot on the Goucher campus..... a good lesson for me, perhaps .... and on her own by the end of the week she had fallen in love with NYU and Barnard, which remained her #1 & #2 choices for the rest of the process. </p>

<p>My response: I shared my d's enthusiasm, but continually reminded her about the money. (To which my d. responded, as noted, by being ticked off over my pessimism). We had a happy ending. But it was clear from start to finish that my daughter, not me, was driving the search for a private education. </p>

<p>When my kids were small I avoided taking them to expensive toy stores -- Kaybees yes, FAO Schwartz, no. (Actually, they did get to go to FAO Schwartz, but only after they were old enough to understand the concept that we were there to look and would not be buying under any circumstances -- we tested that concept out on museums before we ever risked toy stores).</p>

94

<p>According to what they report to US News:</p>

<p>Georgetown:
Avg. merit award (% awarded aid) N/A (0%)</p>

<p>Tufts:
Avg. merit award (% awarded aid) $500 (2%)</p>

<p>And, what is she talking about? Need based aid "from the individual schools?"</p>

95

<p>calmom: You said what I wanted to very well indeed.</p>

<p>epiphany: I agree with you, too. What I, and I think most people, are reacting to is the enthusiasm the writer seems to be showing for a choice could be financially disastrous to her daughter, particularly by extolling the many virtues of Georgetown.</p>

<p>I am in the same position as you, and D was on pins and needles waiting for her financial aid award from dream school. We had already received a very generous offer from another fairly comparable school, but one D did not particularly want to attend. She set a very reasonable number for the amount extra the dream school could cost before she would insist she go to the slightly less attractive alternative. As it turned out, the offers were within 1500 dollars of each other (though being in NYC has certainly turned out to be more than 1500 more expensive, haha), and she was able to choose without constraint. Had the difference been significantly greater, the outcome would have been different, at D's insistance.</p>

<p>It sounds like this poor girl may not understand her family's true financial situation. The trip may have been expensive, and with her mother sending mixed messages that on the one hand finances are paramount, and on the other hand the love for the school is paramount, Samantha may have a difficult time sorting out what would be best for her. For instance, I encouraged S to apply to UChicago because it was EA, but I also told him that I would only undertake the expense of visiting after he had been accepted if he were really considering attending. That let him know that financial considerations are important and should influence many decisions. Dang. We never did get to Chicago!</p>

<p>I would allow D to go into debt (she looked at me as if I were an alien creature when I suggested she look at SUNY Buffalo Law School, but we're not quite up to that yet), but I would do my best to minimize the difference between the schools (within an honest accounting, of course) not maximize it as the writer has seemed to do.</p>

<p>I am not criticizing those of you who felt you had money to spend on trips before hand; you had other ways of showing your children the importance of financial considerations. It's just that this mother seems to be telling her daughter two opposite things at the same time.</p>

96

<p>Well one thing that stands out is that the trip seemed to include only the big ticket schools, for a mom who doesn't want to pay and at the same time believes she will be ineligible for need-based aid. </p>

<p>One of the comments that was included in the 2nd article was from a parent who took her daughter to visit CTCL schools, fell in love with a number of LAC's, and ended up with generous merit offers from several. That's where travel might make a lot of sense. </p>

<p>BTW, I've never seen Chicago either, but my d. has -- she went in January on possibly the coldest day of the year as a tagalong with another family that was kind enough to invite her -- it was her first college visit, we paid airfare, the other family took care of all other costs (hotel, ground transportation). They also visited Loyola. One more tool for the cost-conscious family: the generosity of friends. (Probably smart parenting as well for the family that does the inviting: I bet kids who have been allowed to bring a peer along for the tour are far less likely to turn into pouty brats who refuse to get out of the car the minute they arrive on campus).</p>

97

<p>D1 was also a tagalong invite. Worked beautifully for all concerned.</p>

98

<p>
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One of the comments that was included in the 2nd article was from a parent who took her daughter to visit CTCL schools, fell in love with a number of LAC's, and ended up with generous merit offers from several.

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</p>

<p>Yup. Worked for us and son #1! And kept it down a notch for the second kid's engineering schools. Suddenly affordable. And both are in great places.</p>

99

<p>
[quote]
I believe in saying, "I have X dollars to help you out in college. You may use those dollars at a public, at a private, at a trade school." Some families even say, btw, that if the student selects an economical public, the parents are willing to help out with grad school funds -- trading one support for another.

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</p>

<p>Absolutely, though with certain caveats and with the promise that if they graduate from a reasonable school and there's money left over, they get to keep it.</p>

100

<p>If you really want a good chuckle this morning, check out Kristof's book on Amazon. You can read the chapter "Bunk to Bonanza" as a preview. Whew, talk about eating your words.</p>

<p>As someone said earlier, maybe this is all a build-up to a new book. If that's the case then maybe the advance money will be used to finance her daughter's education. </p>

<p>Usually I try very hard not to judge other parents. Lord knows, I have made a lot of mistakes as a parent. But, I still find myself shaking my head at this woman, whose columns I have always read and enjoyed. Once again, what makes me most uncomfortable is that Samantha's choices and decisions are now public fodder. I just wouldn't do that to my child. If KK had written the column next year it wouldn't be so bad, but not during her daughter's senior year. </p>

<p>I really think one of the most sensitive issues is how much a family is willing to spend on college. Everyone is entitled to his/her own philosophy, but we do need to be honest with our kids. Kathy Kristof was honest with her daughter, but I still feel she was somewhat disingenuous in touring the schools. Yes, it is her daughter’s decision, but as a financial advisor you would think she wouldn’t give tacit support for something that could put her daughter in significant debt. At almost $50,000 per year, less the 20,000 from mom & dad, the child could graduate with anywhere from $100,000-120,000 in debt. </p>

<p>We are a family eligible for financial aid at some schools, so our child was able to apply to her dream schools and for that I am grateful and should probably be more sympathetic to Kristof’s plight. Receiving this help as been wonderful, but that doesn’t mean it’s easy to come up with our EFC. </p>

<p>When our kids were younger, we used online calculators to determine approximately what our EFC would be and we said we would contribute that amount. We also talked about reasonable debt. In our case (and once again, to each his own) we said that as long as the student debt was comparable to that of buying a new car, it seemed reasonable. For us, the cost of a private education was, in some cases, less than what it would be for our state university. </p>

<p>Hey, I should be happy. This woman is making me look good to MY daughter!</p>