Let’s not worry about quant traders if there are fewer than 100 being hired out of college. Same with professional athletes, models, movie stars. These are few in number
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Barely for basketball. James Naismith was actually Canadian and wrote the rule book for basketball only a year after moving to the US. Previous to that he taught at McGill.
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I am not interested in this becoming a quant thread either, but do want to correct the misconceptions. In terms of numbers, it is likely closer to about 1000 people per year when you consider traders, researchers, and software developers.
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But he was at the YMCA college in Springfield, MA when he invented ‘hoops’. And he then took his new game to Kansas.
It’s a given that schools like Harvard can enroll who they want - and they obviously value athletes. Unfortunately, this preference primarily benefits wealthy white students which just further reinforces the status quo in terms of the makeup of the student body.
It’s not as competitive as it could be if it worried less about varsity and college sports and more about high school and college math. Inasmuch as America is still competitive in those, it is largely due to immigrant kids it attracts, not its own education system’s inherent superiority.
And to be as competitive as you can be, you have to gather your best and brightest and challenge them at the highest possible level.
Some people on this thread are saying that this is not Ivies mission.
OK. Granted.
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Right,but not all get those salaries. Just the very top, at very few firms, in few roles, get them right from college. I don’t think the number is anywhere near 1000 in the US-maybe a dozen each from HYPSM, if that, add in some IMO winners…
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Lacrosse, anyone? (facepalm)
Squash? Water polo? Rowing? You know, sports of the common man . . .
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Squash was once a wealthy white game. It no longer is, at all. Largely international-Egypt, India, England-world wide
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A high quality prestigious math education is not a zero sum game in the US. There are plenty of spots for high level mathematicians at highly ranked colleges across the country…some of these schools also have a lower proportion of athletes, and/or those that don’t lower the academic bar for athletes…schools like NYU, U Washington, UCLA, etc.
There is also NO evidence that athletes are taking spots at H or any other school from elite mathematicians to continue with your example. These schools can choose to admit both students. And newsflash…I expect that elite mathematicians in the US skew affluent, @hebegebe?
We know what the schools we are talking about on this thread value, as well as what they literally state in their mission statements.
Agreed. There are sports that don’t skew white and wealthy though. Part of the reason that Brown brought back the TNFXC teams after discontinuing the program a few years ago.
Jim Brown was fairly decent at Lacrosse 
Great. Another thread about how the top schools should focus on educating kids with high math scores über alles.
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It sort of is.
If you peruse the list above, you will find that the peer group at some of the institution you mention may be somewhat more limited.
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That’s just a sad take. We will have to agree to disagree, and I am moving on.
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To briefly stand up for the student-athlete as a general concept:
Athletics is often associated with characteristics that can lead to success in many areas of life. Learning how to be coached, learning how to lead, learning time management, learning patience, learning how to deal with crushing disappointment, and so on. There is also lots of evidence that regular physical activity that you enjoy, particularly with friends, is good for mental and social health in addition to physical fitness. I don’t think organized athletics does any of this uniquely, but I think it can be one good way of addressing all this–and not only as a kid, but as a college student and beyond.
I personally think where it gets dicey is with the way we recruit athletes for intercollegiate teams. Given the way our system works, they typically have to start going down that path so early. And I am not sure that is always coming from the kid versus, say, a parent–such as when maybe they would want to step off that path, but a parent has already invested a lot and is seeing how it could pay off in college.
I also do think that sometimes recruited athletes are not in fact prepared to succeed academically–less so in the Ivy League, perhaps, but I think “big money” sports programs can get pretty exploitative at times, and if a kid gets injured or simply doesn’t make it beyond college sports, things don’t always go as well as maybe they could have.
So personally, I would have zero problem with holistic review colleges continuing to give dedicated and successful HS athletes credit for time well-spent (along with plenty of other things). And I have no problem with intramural, club, and intercollegiate athletics being a major college activity. But I am much less sure our way of doing sports recruiting is a great idea.
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They definitely skew affluent, as can be seen from the school distribution of math award winners. But there are also a number of financial aid students studying math at the highest levels, so it’s possible for lower income students to break through.
Thanks for the insights. Definitely similarities to athletic recruitng…skews affluent, but in athletics there are many organizations helping limited income and/or URM student-athletes access athletic training, academic tutoring, and recruiting/application assistance. I work with many students who wouldn’t have been able to attend college without athletics.
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Try to explain this that to someone outside the US.
“This boy/girl really wants to become a teacher/scientist/engineer, but their academics are not strong enough, so we are having them spend all their free time on a basketball court/soccer field to help them reach their dream.”
Say what?
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The reason they wouldn’t have been able to attend college is because they can’t afford it…tell that to someone outside the US and watch them shake their heads in literal disbelief. That’s my last response to you.
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