Why shouldn’t they be able to do online courses?
I am a believer in second chances. I also believe that the best way to prevent recidivism is to provide people with meaningful opportunities to be productive members of society. The idea that a young person should be forever locked out of higher education and professional workforce because of a conviction (especially a non-violent one) is incomprehensible. Why wouldn’t such a person return to crime if society deems them unredeemable?
We have criminalized all sorts of behavior that used to get a pass. A young man I know has a criminal felony conviction because at age 16 he got upset about something happening in his high school and in a impulsive moment pulled the fire alarm. Because the fire department’s response billed at over $250, this was considered a felony. When I was in high school, this would have been considered a ill-conceived prank and resulted in a week or two suspension.
I don’t have any concerns about my children attending college with students who have non-violent convictions. I am far more concerned about my children attending college with someone like Brock Turner, who had no convictions but proved to be a danger.
To me there’s a big difference between being in a class with someone and being assigned to live in a small room with them.
Isn’t this the ultimate straw man argument?
(Anyone with a pulse and who is 18 can enroll in community college, at least in my state. So not only are the not locked out of college “forever”, they aren’t locked out at all.)
I think we’d all like to “believe” that too, but I’d sure love to see the hard data to support the thesis.
Someone who has served prison time for a felony conviction is likely of the age to be a non-traditional student, and is probably less likely to want to live in the frosh dorm to begin with. Those who were in the juvenile criminal justice system for felonies while under 18 were probably derailed from the path to more selective colleges to begin with.
But then that brings up the question of what percentage of (adult) felony convictions do not result in prison time (e.g. Brock Turner)?
Yes, this is the vicious cycle of recidivism. Decisions that may be rational in an individual context (i.e. fear of ex-prisoners based on high recidivism rates) only make the overall recidivism problem worse (i.e. causing ex-prisoners to be shut out of many avenues to go straight, leaving them mostly with options where they are dependent on others or return to crime).
Most misdemeanor convictions wouldn’t bother me. I think felony convictions deserve a close inspection…as someone said some can be fairly benign and others should give pause.
I think many on cc would agree. But again, are Adcoms the right folks to be conducting the “inspection.” Are they trained?
(Some/many of them are liberal arts majors right out of college themselves.)
“To me there’s a big difference between being in a class with someone and being assigned to live in a small room with them.”
Agreed, but this scenario is pretty unlikely. The vast majority of four-year college students in this country don’t live in dorms. Felons are much more likely than other students to be older and poorer. The highly selective schools that we focus on here are still going to be very picky and careful about their students even if they follow Obama’s advice here.
I don’t think you can just dismiss the by saying they wouldn’t live in dorms. SUNY was prominently mentioned in this article. SUNY Albany: " At this school, 58 percent of the students live in college-owned, -operated, or -affiliated housing and 42 percent of students live off campus." SUNY Buffalo: “coed dorms (53%)”. That’s probably a very high percentage of freshmen living in dorms.
SUNY four year campuses do seem to be more residential than most other state universities (90+% of frosh in the dorms, frosh/soph on-campus living requirement, though there are presumably exceptions for non-traditional students), though it looks like most upper class students live off campus.
However, would someone released from prison be more likely to start college at a community college and transfer in as an upper class student instead of start as a frosh? Remember that only 59% of prisoners have a high school diploma or GED (versus about 82% of the general population), so ex-prisoners are less likely to be academically qualified to start college at colleges other than open admission ones.
The Federal Government really is a mess. On one hand it wants colleges to ignore actual convictions in admissions. In the case of a conviction a person has actually had due process and been adjudicated guilty. On the other hand it wants colleges to expel people who are merely accused of sexual assault, with no (or limited) due process.
How does any of it make any sense?
I think that colleges are right to ask about convictions and it is also right to examine those convictions closely to see if the student poses a threat to the rest of the student body. There are consequences to being convicted of a crime. Just because something affects people of color in greater numbers that does not mean it is racist.
I don’t think I’m dismissing anything. Nontraditional students do not live in dorms at nearly the same rates as other students, even when they are freshmen.
Agreed, but that doesn’t mean that none of them do, nor does it mean that the kid with a theft conviction is old enough to be a “non traditional student”. What about 19 year old freshmen, do they never ever live in dorms?
I like to think colleges and universities have enough common sense to differentiate between shoplifting and breaking and entering and breaking, entering and use of a fire arm in committing a theft and differentiate between someone with one criminal offense and someone with a list of offenses. It is also not that difficult to switch roommates for soon to be freshman. My girlfriend did not like her D’s roommate based on a pretty easy Google search and simply called up and said “my full pay D will attend a different college unless you change her roommate” and of course they changed her roommate. I thought it was rather hilarious in a sad way, but that is her. She’s a classic helicopter parent. A parent that is “that” concerned about who their offspring is rooming with can certainly react before dropping them off in August.
IMO what’s worse for poor kids who got convicted of a minor drug offense is that they are ineligible for federal financial aid. All well and good to get in (or get into a CC) but if you can’t pay what’s the point?
Edited to add: it looks like a high school conviction doesn’t do that, only one while on aid, so in college.
A friend had me (a non criminal attorney but I had worked in this courthouse and in fact clerked for the judge this matter was assigned to) represent her 16 year old who, along with some friends, built some small bombs during spring break and put them in a newspaper box, causing damage to the newspaper boxes and a fence. If I recall, there were 4 boys and there was about $2500 in damages. The county had a fairly standard plea deal, no skipping school, community service, no using guns, no drugs, etc. They had to pay the restitution but it was split among them. No one even thought about future college issues, if a plea would crush their ability to live in the dorm or even get into college. I don’t know if we would have decided to go to trial if pleading would have meant no college. I don’t think a lot of people would think of that at the time as all anyone is trying to do is handle the current situation, staying out of jail and not being expelled from high school.
Would it have been a problem to have him as a roommate?
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IMHO, opposite. Big name colleges will be the first to admit “justice-involved” students to demonstrate the world how open and inclusive they are. Several years ago, Berkeley admitted former felon (after he served a very, very long sentence) and made a story on the front page of their magazine. After the story was aired, I got questions if a criminal record improves your chances of college admission.
BTW, is some jurisdictions manslaughter is a misdemeanor. Not every misdemeanor is harmless.
I believe only involuntary manslaughter… and some jurisdictions also categorize vehicular manslaughter in the same manner.
Well, I guess it depends whether you want to live in the same room with someone who likes to blow up other people’s property for fun. And this was a 16 year old, not an 8 year old. I’ll pass.