<p>My S has been accepted to a few top engineering schools (i.e. Purdue, GT and Michigan). But financially it is quite not possible. Being an engineer from an unknown school in Western Europe, I myself have been earning quite well and for me prestige doesn't matter as much as the quality of education. </p>
<p>My S has been admitted to a school instate as well where the total fees including room and board will be 15K, which is quite good and I have given him an option to transfer out to a school as expensive as Berkley or Michigan after the second year and basically the first 2 years in engineering is basic Math and Science. </p>
<p>But then according my son looking good in school compared to his other classmates who have been less academically qualified have been going to better ranked school's and the school which he has been accepted to is a 'Tier 4' and it is difficult for me to make him understand that it is not that important until he performs well in class. </p>
<p>S has a good HS record. 2150 SAT and a 3.7 GPA. </p>
<p>What should I be doing to convince him to go to this school and also, are there any pointers that he must be working towards in order to transfer to a good school.</p>
<p>Are you sure that the credits he earns at one school will transfer to another?
and
Will he be happy at the lower tiered school? Will he be with his intellectual peers?</p>
<p>There are kids who can be happy at their financial safety but not many start out happy.</p>
<p>If a more expensive school isn’t financially possible, then you need to explain the finances to him so he understands. But your message sends a confused message–you seem to be saying that the expensive school isn’t worth it, not so much that you can’t afford it. I think you will find plenty of people who will tell you that it is better to attend a higher-ranked school with a stronger program if you can afford it. Ask yourself what the main reason is that you would like him to attend the less expensive program. If it’s a concern that the costs of the other programs will be an intolerable burden on your family, you can explain it to him. If it’s just your opinion that the more expensive programs aren’t “worth it,” you’re going to have a harder time convincing him.</p>
<p>It will be a lot easier for your son to be happy once the school year ends and he gets away from his fellow high school students. The ‘comparison game’ that goes on at the end of senior year makes this process stressful. My daughter chose to go to our state flagship on her own, partly because the pre-vet programs are excellent (there is a vet school on campus) and partly because she wanted to keep the college savings for vet school down the road. Nonetheless, she is feeling bad that a lot of students who are not particularly serious are headed for the same school, and a lot of students who are her high school peers are headed for selective schools. I am just waiting for this semester to end so she can forget about what everyone else is doing and concentrate on her own plans.</p>
<p>Tell your son to make a substantive effort to get to know a professor or two so he can get a transfer recommendation if he still wants to transfer after a year or two. At most large public schools, it is up to the student to seek out research opportunities–he should not sit around waiting for someone to offer him something. Even at his private school, my son took the initiative here; he looked up what professors were working on, and set up appointments with them to ask if anyone would let him join their group, just for experience. After one school year, he was working for pay, but at first it was for experience.</p>
<p>In the meantime, perhaps your son could peruse the student clubs and organizations at the school he is headed for, and see if there is anything that interests him. It is time to work at developing some enthusiasm going in.</p>
<p>There is a huge difference in the quality of peer group between tier 1 and tier 4 schools, which leads to a very big difference in the quality of education.</p>
<p>I agree with nngmm, especially as it relates to engineering. It is not a given that all Tier 4 courses will transfer to a Tier 1 institution, and even if they do on paper, the level of work may not be the same, leaving your S at a serious disadvantage (in the basics, as you say) when he transfers. </p>
<p>It has been my observation that the level of intro engineering courses is significantly lower at Tier 4 institutions than it would be at a place like Purdue. This is often due to the caliber and background of the students. If you start out with the same syllabus as a Tier 1 institution, you rapidly have to alter your expectations, because the Tier 4 students often are unable to do the work (basic trig and algebra, let alone calculus, for example). You can’t fail all the students. </p>
<p>So there IS a difference. OP says he is a grad of an unknown school in Europe. Let’s face it, almost all European engineering schools are “unknown” in the U.S. However, my observations again is that even the lesser known ones (among Europeans) are on a par with Tier 1/2 U.S. schools, especially in the basics. If it is financially feasible, go for the Tier 1 institutions.</p>
<p>^^^I’m not sure what “Tier 4” is. However, engineering students at just about any public flagship are able to enroll in calculus or higher from the outset if they are prepared to do so. They are not forced to enroll in lower level intro. courses just because some of their fellow students are behind in math and science. At the other end, graduate courses are available to advanced undergraduates. </p>
<p>If we are discussing a lower-level regional college, not a flagship or equivalent, the story may be different. There may not be enough options for an advanced student.</p>
<p>You really need to make sure you understand what courses will transfer (agree w/above posters). You are thinking it will be 2 years at the destination school, but it very well could be three. For example, you can’t get an associates at a 4 year school, so articulation arrangements that exist for community college grads w/associates, where it’s guaranteed that certain courses will transfer, probably aren’t in effect. The best way to make this work is to target the destination 4 year school specifically and sign up for classes with THAT SCHOOL and it’s transfer reqs in mind.</p>
<p>Then run the numbers in detail, and sit son down for a talk. I do believe you can make it work and can’t dissuade you. But I think you and son have to understand that there might be some big adjustments going to the ‘better’ school - far more rigor, subjects taught there in intro classes that aren’t covered at 1st school, etc.</p>
<p>I also have to think that the economic crisis (people have lost lots of equity over the past few years) will force some very capable kids into less expensive and ‘lesser’ schools.</p>
<p>EasternDad, I think you are pointing him in the right direction. Unless money isn’t a factor.</p>
<p>I got an engineering degree 28 years ago from a Tier III school, and have never had any issues competing in the job/career market. As you know, most engineering programs are very similar in the first two years, and reasonably similar after that.</p>
<p>I have worked with engineers from Tier I thru Tier IV schools and have yet to be able to distinguish talent by Tier level. There are good engineers from all levels and bad engineers from all levels.</p>
<p>You are offering him a chance to transfer after two years if he proves himself at the Tier IV school. I think that’s a reasonable offer.</p>
<p>Is this only about gaining credentials for an entry-level position as an engineer? Do the opportunities to be challenged and influenced by world-class peers, and the chance to develop personal skills beyond the classroom that may contribute to future leadership possibilities factor in? For parents from outside the U.S. they often don’t, but to most educated Americans, they’re critical factors.</p>
<p>*S has a good HS record. 2150 SAT and a 3.7 GPA.</p>
<p>What should I be doing to convince him to go to this school and also, are there any pointers that he must be working towards in order to transfer to a good school.*</p>
<p>Gosh, with those stats, he could have gotten really good merit (like free tuition) at some mid-tier schools. </p>
<p>If his M+CR SAT score is 1360+, then I would have him quickly apply to UAH. He can still get a great scholarship - full tuition plus. If his M+CR is above 1490, he’d get a free ride.</p>
<p>The school may be tier 3, but its engineering school is excellent and the Co-op opportunities can pay for costs that the scholarship doesn’t. Their program is excellent. </p>
<p>The school is located in Cummings Research Park (the second largest research park in the nation) which is why the internship and co-op opportunities are so great.</p>
<p>He could also appeal to Bama to see if they would give him their presidential and engineering scholarship (full tuition plus $2500 per year). If he’s from a state where they need more students, they might.</p>
<p>Let me know if you’re interested, I can help you with this.</p>
<p>I would be sure to check out whether the “Tier 4” school’s engineering program is accredited. Assuming yes, engineering, math and science courses will likely transfer. However, other courses, such as core courses, will be less likely to transfer.</p>
<p>Firstly, thank you for all the responses. This is my first post on any kind of forum. </p>
<p>I have three sons and I have saved up 130K for each son (only the first 2, the last one is in junior high). </p>
<p>My son is worried that he would not get a good job or a good graduate school as his peers who went to a top 10-20 US news school would get (for the first 2 years). </p>
<p>IS it still possible for him to transfer out after the 2 second year, as after that any top school will be affordable for me and even though it might seem a bit selfish, my wife and I could see our son close to home. </p>
<p>The school which he is going to enroll in to is a small state school and as far as my perspective is taken in to consideration, i feel it is the student who makes a difference in the larger sense. </p>
<p>Can he still transfer out to a good school after the second year and what should he be working towards ? –> If this is not at all possible, I feel I should be taking loans and should be sending him to the other universities he has been accepted to. </p>
<p>Note - I fail to make him understand that if he does well in this school he can transfer out or even get a good job. As I too hire engineers and I have students from any tier university with good grades start at the same slary as any kid from a top university.</p>
<p>@mom2collegekids - How do I apply now ? </p>
<p>@spurster - the program is accredited b ABET.</p>
<p>Eastern Dad you are correct in your assumptions regarding starting engineers. Secondly, it is possible to transfer into engineering schools as many liberal arts colleges have 3+2 programs. Also, kids transfer from CCs into engineering programs after two years frequently. Your son should definitely examine what courses will transfer so that he plans his first two years accordingly.</p>
<p>I think it’s not easy to transfer to UC Berkeley from a 4th tier school if your son is not a California resident and not attending a California community college. And it’s more likely that he has to spend 3 more years to complete the degree. Also, he may not have the work habit in a tougher environment,
especially in 3rd and 4th year.</p>
<p>I don’t know about transferring into some programs but I did look up the requirements for University of Michigan. They require a 3.3 to transfer and I’ve heard that they would like a 3.5. Engineering is hard and it might not be so easy to obtain that GPA.</p>
<p>I also agree about the quality of classes and students from a Tier 1 to Tier 3 or 4. It really depends on the university. Do you know which companies recruit for the lower ranked school. What kind of opportunities do they have for co-ops and internships? What kind of placement rate does the lower ranked school have. </p>
<p>I also think you should think about the possibility of him not transferring after 2 years. It’s hard to transfer. You get settled where you are and have friends and it’s not easy to start over again. I think you should be happy where he begins because he may stay there.</p>
<p>I also think that there is a big difference in ranked schools and their reputation as engineering departments. For instance Miami University in Ohio is a very good public university with a good reputation. I am not thrilled with their engineering school. They have a new program and a new building but not much experience with placement. On the other hand the University of Cincinnati is not a highly ranked school but it has a great engineering department (and other schools in that u are great, such as its school of music).</p>
<p>I think the statements by ‘coolweather’ are ones to pay attention to. You shouldn’t make the assumption that he can complete 2 years ‘anywhere’ and then simply transfer in to some of these colleges and even if he manages to be admitted as a transfer, some of his courses might not be accepted which could leave him facing an additional 3 years rather than the 2 years you’re assuming. </p>
<p>I think the particular college the student graduates from ‘does’ make a difference for obtaining the initial job and sometimes some subsequent jobs. There’s a difference in the level of education between a number of these schools as one would expect given the different levels of peers at the schools. Some companies only recruit at a limited number of campuses and some companies or hiring managers will perceive a difference in the applicant from the engineering program at a place like UCB/UCLA/UCSD/Purdue/uMich/CMU/MIT/CalTech/etc. versus some that aren’t known for their engineering programs and that are very easy to get into. It doesn’t mean that the grad of the much lower ranked school will never get a job but there is a difference.</p>
<p>There’s also the point about upheaval by switching from one 4 year U to another after a couple of years which would mean no longer being with his friends at the old school, having to ‘figure out’ the new school, etc. He’d also need to be prepared for a different level of work from what he’s used to at the old one to the new one. The students at the 3rd year level at a place like UCB are likely going to present a much more competetive environment than a 3rd year level at a 4th tier school and with grades generally being curve based, it could present a problem for your S. </p>
<p>Keep in mind that a fair number of enineering students end up switching out into a non-engineering major for a variety of reasons so his plans could well change over the next year or so.</p>
<p>Finances are important and certainly need to be considered but just make sure you’re not making some assumptions about college transfers that might end up not coming through. Also keep in mind the sometimes added time, often an extra year, that transfers incur for engineering (because of all the classes they need to 'catch up ’ on) and the expenses associated with that extra year. On top of that, if he does end up spending an extra year due to the transfer, that’s one less year of earning he’ll have hence another cost (although probably his rather than yours).</p>
<p>Have you considered something in between the top and the bottom? Someplace where he might be awarded decent finAid and is not too costly yet has a more well known engineering school and perhaps a higher level of peers?</p>
<p>I agree with Hunt, and I am one of those people who think the stronger program is worth paying for. If you can’t afford it, you can’t afford it. That’s life. But I do think that two years at a Tier 4 school will result in an inferior education.</p>
<p>I think that the schools that you mentioned are worth paying for if you can. You can cover the same material at different speeds and different levels of depth in courses with the same name. Nonetheless, the top schools will often be harder, deeper, faster and their students generally more capable. The expectations and the standard of excellence will be higher and they will likely learn more, and likely earn more over the course of a career. People pay for capability. You can develop more capability in 4 years by learning at a faster pace.</p>
<p>In your first post you did not mention that you have already saved $130,000 for this son’s education. Now I am confused.</p>
<p>OOS tuition and fees, including personal costs and books, is 47K for U Michigan. You already have 32K of that in the bank. If your son takes out 5K per year in loans, and contributes 5k per year through summer and other earnings, your contribution could be as little as 5K out of current earnings. (There are probably a few other engineering fees that are not included in the COA estimates.)</p>
<p>Maybe I am missing something, or you cannot come up with 5k out of earnings. At this moment, though, I question whether one of the three choices mentioned in post 1 is not actually feasible. (I haven’t looked up Georgia Tech or Purdue, but I don’t think they run any higher than U Michigan for OOS. Purdue used to be a bit less expensive, as I remember.)</p>