<p>Thank you in advance for considering my questions. Our son, a junior who transferred this year to a school with a modified block schedule is unsure what to do about a math class next year. He wants to major in Neuroscience and is considering some LACs in the Midwest and a few reachy LACs in the East plus U-Rochester. We feel he is in pretty good shape with science, but can't figure out what to do with math for next year. </p>
<p>His math/science sequence:
8th - Geometry & Biology (will not appear on his transcript)
9th - Algebra II & Chemistry
10th - Algebraic Functions & Trig. (old school?s pre-calc) & Chemistry II
Summer between 10th & 11th - Honors Physics at Northwestern Univ. CTD
11th - AP Calculus AB & AP Biology
12th - either AP Chemistry or AP Physics (whichever fits in the schedule) and an extra science class: Advanced topics in science: Anatomy and Physiology Sem. I and a Neuroscience mentored study Sem II.
(The schools in our area do not offer Calc beyond AB so we naively assumed he could take Statistics Sem. I then AP Stats. Sem II. If he takes Stats, he will not be able to fit the second science class which he really wants. Also, a family member who is working on her doctorate in a science field recommended that he wait and take statistics in college when it can be related to the area in which he'll want to do research.)</p>
<p>There have been 1 or 2 students each year at this school who have needed to take a Calculus class at a local college. The problem with this is that my son is already driving 30 minutes one way to school and either of the two possible colleges would mean adding an hour in commuting time on the days the class would meet. He's heavily involved in several hours of competitive tennis and outside music lessons/rehearsals each week so we feel the college option just won't work. Also, he has done "A" work in all of the math & science classes except for Calc in which he has a solid B. He doesn't love math, but realizes that it will always have to be a part of his academic life. </p>
<p>One solution we are mulling over is to have him take either MO 42 Calculus C or
MO 41 Calculus B online through EPGY at Stanford this summer. Does anyone have experience with this sequence? Would colleges consider this an acceptable substitution for a high school math class? Are there other online programs that are better?</p>
<p>Our son intends to continue taking Calculus when he gets to college so he's thinking this might help fill in any gaps he may have. He also thought that if he already owned the software he could use it the following year to review before taking whatever college calculus class he places into.</p>
<p>Thank you for taking the time to read this. I appreciate any wisdom that you can share.</p>
<p>So basically he's taking AB Calc now - which is about a semester's worth of college calculus. Theoretically he should be able to sign up for Calculus C and take the BC exam at the end of next year. He might need B for review. I'm a little surprised he's not taking BC now, but I'm assuming your school didn't offer it. If it were me I'd e-mail the EPGY folks and ask if they either have a placement test or a more complete course description than what is on their website. I haven't dealt with EPGY since elementary school, but they were always helpful then. Assuming your son could manage it I think ideally your son would do Calculus C in the fall and then start one of the post AP courses in the spring.</p>
<p>Does he really have to do ANY? Are the schools going to accept AP credits? Even if they are, might he prefer to take Calc at the college itself, to get him used to their teaching style? It sounds like he has a full agenda; his schedule looks packed; he certainly won't be seen as a slacker; and it probably won't make the slightest bit of difference in LAC college admissions. </p>
<p>All I'm suggesting is that if he feels he HAS to do something, he should be able to clearly conceptualize why.</p>
<p>Thanks for the suggestions mathmom. None of the schools in our area (towns of 8-10,000) offer BC, that's part of the problem. We will contact EPGY regarding placement if we decide that this is the way to go.</p>
<p>mini,
I was wondering the same thing; however, a couple of the LACs recommend four years of math. Could it hurt for my son to ask those schools if they would expect him to continue or if completion of Calc. AB is sufficient? I guess our son's concern is that because he isn't a wiz, math is a "use it or lose it" subject for him. He figures he should take something each year. He certainly doesn't need the credits nor does he want the class to be figured into his GPA or rank if that's possible.</p>
<p>But he's basically HAD four years of math, he just began a little early. They'll see that immediately. (For many, if not most college-bound students, though not those headed to prestige schools, the 4th year is precalc, or statistics, and he had precalc in 10th grade.)</p>
<p>Never hurts to ask - but it should be asked in the context of his already very advanced schedule.</p>
<p>My son, currently a senior, has been doing EPGY math since the beginning of 11th grade because of scheduling issues (he could not fit precalculus into his schedule as a junior, and would not have been able to fit any math class in this year either). He is a strong math/science student, planning to major in physics or chemistry, so it was crucial for him that he be able to continue taking math throughout high school. Community college would not been a practical choice for him. He completed EPGY's "honors precalculus w/ trig" course fall of junior year, and did M040 (Calculus A) second semester. He couldn't finish B in time to do the AB exam last May, and he was very busy throughout the summer, so he didn't pick up the calculus again until fall, senior year. He hasn't been in a big hurry to finish, since he is planning to do the BC test in May, but he did just finish M041 and will move on shortly to M042. Top colleges know EPGY and certainly accept it in lieu of equivalent high school courses (my son was just admitted EA to Stanford). I recommend the program highly, though the student must be self-motivated, independent, and willing to put up with some of the limitations (and resulting frustration) inherent in even the best "computer" math course (eg., software that sometimes does not accept answers as correct if they're not in the specific form recognized by the software). I do think that my son has sometimes wasted time and effort working to input answers in the right form, even though his answers were correct and would have been accepted by a live person. However, in general, I think that EPGY does a great job with the program and, again, I recommend it highly.</p>
<p>One more point: my son's high school has put his EPGY courses on his transcript, but they are treated by the high school like community college courses: the grades do not figure into class rank or GPA. This is certainly something you'd want to confirm with his high school.</p>
<p>If he has a heavy schedule doing BC over the course of the year having already done AB this year really isn't that onerous. You are basically stretching a college semester long course over the year. So the only real question would be how much of B has he covered. That said, I agree he doesn't HAVE to do math, but in his shoes, especially if he's considering going into science, I'd be reluctant to take a year off.</p>
<p>filo895,
Congratulations to your son on his acceptance, and thank you for sharing your son's experience with the program. We looked at the website and our son was wondering how the answers would be entered. It's good to know that even though it has a few kinks, your son has found it to be useful. I recalled previous threads on CC that discussed the software, but with the search function not currently working I couldn't find them. </p>
<p>mathmom,
I appreciate your input. Yes, he is reluctant to take a year off. After considering what parents have said, he's considering starting this summer so he has more time to work out the software logistics. Our next step is to get approval from his school.</p>
<p>pianomom,
The software includes all of the notation needed to input one's answers properly. There's also something called the "derivation system" (I don't know too much about it) which apparently allows one to transform and simplify expressions painlessly. I think it took my son a week or so to get used to the software, and then it was pretty easy after that. However, there still are times when he can't get things to enter properly, but he doesn't seem to think it's that big a problem. Exams are given after each unit, and they ususally consist of an online portion and a written portion that the student mails in. Tutors are available by phone or email if help is needed, and there's a live interactive session once a week that's completely optional. My son actually has never used the live session, and I don't believe he's ever asked his tutor for help, but the help is there.</p>
<p>I have a contrarian view about EPGY for Calc B . D's school also capped out at AB and she didn't want the transcript showing "no math" (although like mini said it actually showed 5 years at the time). D is very self motivated and has been "on her own" with math several times in her career due to being "advanced" for our district. EPGY looked like a good course. </p>
<p>We paid the not small dollars and D did not enjoy it at all. Constant problems with getting grades back. It ended up that D did not have her B final grade back before she needed to sign up for C (although midterm reports went out showing her as taking C). It ended up that there was some problem of "handing her off" between graders that shouldn't have happened and EPGY offerred to allow her free course work in the future. This could very well have been an isolated instance . They certainly treated it as if it were.;) </p>
<p>They were aghast that this had happened to a senior and were ready and willing to fall on the sword to try to "fix" any admissions problems it created. There were none (that we know about) but we did notify the schools and scholarship committees that D was "left stranded" but would self-study the rest of the course. The "dropping" of a course made us nervous at the time (visions of recissions dancing in our heads). D did in fact chose to just self-study C and made a 5 on her own with a borrowed textbook. </p>
<p>So, while it may be a great program , it wasn't that great for us. Good luck.</p>
<p>Our son was in a similar situation. He had maxed out the sequential math offerings in his high school by the end of his junior year. The option of taking higher level calculus at a local college wouldn't work due to schedule issues. We communicated with the admission offices of several of the schools on his list, and yes, they did want 4 years of high-school math. He took AP stats. He's studying engineering, and knew going in that the AP stats wouldn't count for college credit, but it did fulfill the admissions requirement.</p>
<p>Thank you for the additional observations curmudgeon and mafool. Son is having to make a choice between Stats (a class he doesn't want) and an additional science class that he wants. Because he's in band and jazz band and they each are given a full block this is pretty tricky. Most of the AP's at his school are offered as a single session. I'm sure most kids in his shoes have a similar dilemma. He can't wait for college where he feels he'll have more choices and flexibility. </p>
<p>He's not concerned about the college credit in the math because he's quite sure that math is one area where he will probably benefit from reinforcing rather than accelerating. However, he does feel that he should try to continue the calculus sequence. Even after reading Curmudgeon's D's experience, he's still hoping to go ahead with the EPGY class this summer.</p>
<p>My son took multivariable calc. through epgy this year as he completed APBC last year and epgy was touted as a good solution - we do not live close enough to any college to take a "live" class and were told that since he wanted to go into engineering, he should not take a year off of calculus. Unfortunately, it has not been worth the $$. For lots of reasons, I think the face-to- face human element can't be understated. It's been a waste of time/effort.</p>
<p>Similar experience. My D maxed out her math classes at her school and a class at a local college just wouldn't work schedule wise. She is taking Calc BC through Johns Hopkins CTY. My daughter loves math but hates the on-line course format. She is maintaining an A average but considers it pure drudgery. Her comment the other day was "Thank God I'm good at math and don't need any help from the teacher." I would be a little nervous doing the EPGY course if your son is only getting a B now in Calc AB. Instead I'd see if there was something available over the summer at an area high school or local college.</p>
<p>I seldom post here, but my D had a similar experience to curm's D. In her block 4 schedlue, senoirs are only permitted 3APs, and she had many she wanted to take other than math, so we tried the online w/Stanford, and it was the worst educational experience ever! In the end I phoned many of her potential schools and was told it would not be a detriment to admission except at one, where she then chose not to apply. She had 4 years of math, just none this year. So far she has four early acceptances, so as far as we know, it hasn't hurt. One of those AP classes is Shem, which does keep her in contact w/math.</p>