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<p>Really? And your source for this pearl of wisdom?</p>
<p>Do rejects go to U of. Michigan as well?</p>
<p>I think your definition of “rejects” needs some adjustment. </p>
<p>In addition, there are students who really excel in college who did. Not do so in high school. When I went to my 10th HS reunion, I remember being surprised by some of the alums who were doctors, for example. </p>
<p>There are actually plenty of students for whom schools like Vandy, Wash U, Northwestern and the like…are their first choice schools…for any number of reasons.</p>
<p>You know…the world does NOT revolve around HYSPM for the vast majority of people.</p>
<p>I wonder what Julie is going to think when she graduates from college and ends up working for a boss who went to state school. </p>
<p>In any case, I’m an outcomes-based guy, so I looked at the “American leaders” category in the Forbes rankings. HYPS do lead in per capita production of American leaders, followed by Cornell, CalTech, & MIT. Above the last Ivy (Columbia) are Chicago and Swarthmore, Amherst, & Williams (duh) but also Cal and W&L (probably due in part to well-connected parents). Just below Columbia are Wesleyan, UMich, Northwestern, Oberlin, Duke, G’Town, & ND.</p>
<p>However, as I posted in another thread, Cal, UMich, Wisconsin, UT-Austin, UCLA, UVa, UNC, Illinois, and Indiana actually produce more leaders in American society PER CAPITA than JHU, Rice, CMU, WashU, or Vanderbilt.
That’s stunning considering the average quality of students entering the first group of schools and the average quality of students entering the second group of schools.
Oh, and those top publics produce more leaders per capita than Wake or BC as well, if you’re wondering (Forbes did not rank Emory because they lied).</p>
<p>However, before you get all puffed up about the Ivies, when you look at per capita production of students who win nationally competitive awards (these are prestigious scholarships/fellowships like the Rhodes, Fulbright, NSF, and Marshall), a ton of LACs do better than the worst Ivy (UPenn in this case), including some few have heard of like Wheaton, Lewis&Clark, and New College of FL (also the research universities of Northwestern, WashU, JHU, and Rice).</p>
<p>Among research universities, obviously CalTech, MIT, and Stanford are better than half the Ivies in per capita production of nationally competitive student award winners, but also Chicago, Rice, and Duke.</p>
<p>@JulieXOXO:</p>
<p>So in short, while HYPS (and MIT & CalTech if you want to include them) grads do seem to do better than grads of other schools (likely due to better inputs), anyone who thinks that the lesser Ivies are still a cut above Chicago, Duke, & Northwestern has been binge drinking too heavily on the Ivy kool-aid (and even the top state schools perform pretty darn well).</p>
<p>It doesn’t say much for, say, Columbia, if they take in better inputs than Chicago & Cal (as you seem to think) yet produce superstars at a lesser rate than Chicago or Cal.</p>
<p>PS Barnard is counted separately, so you can’t even use them as an excuse.</p>
<p>This, of course, doesn’t even address the issue of whether Ivies actually are a better place to attend in terms of improving you (assuming you have a choice) or just rely on high-quality well-connected inputs for high-quality output.</p>
<p>A ton of LACs do better than many Ivies in both turning out prestigious award winners and per capita PhD production, for instance. Chicago and Rice are actually better than ANY Ivy in per capita production of STEM PhDs (all the more impressive in Chicago’s case as they don’t have an engineering school).</p>
<p>NMTech (a public school you’ve probably never heard of) produces STEM PhD’s at a higher rate than any Ivy besides H and P.</p>
<p>BTW, something that 18 year-olds do not realize is that success in life really is up to the individual, not his/her school. Off the top of my head, I can recall a few guys from my HS who went to HYPSM. One went to H (he did win some major award or something in HS) and has now dropped of the face of the earth. Another went to MIT. Really nice guy, smart, and studious. Now he’s a nondescript engineer somewhere. Another also went to H (tech guy who wrote great poetry). He’s done well; middle-manager at Microsoft or something, but nothing spectacular. Oh, and one went to CalTech. He’s now a software contractor.</p>
<p>Meanwhile, like every year, many who graduated my year went to our public state flagship (that nobody confuses with an Ivy). One is at a hedge fund now. A couple others founded companies and sold them for millions (one of those guys seemingly played computer games 90% of his waking hours when he was in HS). A few years behind my class, a bunch of guys went to our flagship, then went to Silicon Valley and founded some companies that many of you would have heard of.</p>
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<p>Harvard tuition: $43,938
Harvard total list price: $62,250 to $68,050
Chevrolet Sonic MSRP: $14,995 to $23,300
Chevrolet Cruze MSRP: $18,345 to $26,980
Chevrolet Malibu MSRP: $23,165 to $34,960
Chevrolet Impala MSRP: $27,670 to $40,860
Chevrolet SS MSRP: $46,670</p>
<p>Looks like it depends on which Chevrolet sedan.</p>
<p>I’m pretty sure in 1975 Penn tuition was around $3500, as was the price of a stripped down VW Rabbit (sadly, no A/C or radio).</p>
<p>Penn has a rather nice site for researchers. And I think most Ivies were close in tuition and fees going back decades. </p>
<p><a href=“http://www.archives.upenn.edu/histy/features/tuition/1970.html”>http://www.archives.upenn.edu/histy/features/tuition/1970.html</a></p>
<p>Tuition was about 3800 and room & board was another 2000, so the total was about 5800. </p>
<p>A hundred years ago, you could attend for 160 in tuition, but room and board cost even more…between 220 and 330 a year!</p>
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<p>Not always. </p>
<p>My uncle had a H engineering graduate who was placed as his secretary for 10 years because said graduate was an idiot nephew of a senior executive and management wanted to place him where he could do the least amount of damage in light of his past performance. </p>
<p>I also knew a few elite U grads…including some fresh HYP graduates who didn’t finish their probationary period in some past companies because their performance left so much to be desired they were let go. Sometimes within a matter of weeks…not months. </p>
<p>@cobrat:</p>
<p>@Juliexoxo must be a high schooler because she says stuff with so much certainty even though just a bit of real-life experience would show her that what people value is what an individual does, not his/her school. The second company I worked at out of college had a Harvard grad as a customer service rep. A few months after I joined, they hired a Northwestern art history grad (who became a friend of mine) as a customer service rep as well. Harvard Guy didn’t last and NU Art History Major was running the entire department a decade down the road (by which time it had expanded by several times over).</p>
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<p>During orientation at Harvard Business School many years ago, our group leader explained that admission to HBS was similar to applying for a bank loan (before the ills of deregulation) – you had to prove you didn’t need it. She went on to explain that HBS looked for students who were already successful. The “magic” the school provided was not in teaching anyone to be successful (they don’t believe they can do that), but rather to bring together people who had already demonstrated success and show them how to approach problem solving at an executive level by asking them 800 times (cases), “You’re the CEO; what are you going to do?” After a few hundred of those exercises in that pool of “inputs,” you got to be pretty good at it. But, you can’t really look at the graduated “outputs” and deduce that HBS worked some magic. The quality of the inputs was key.</p>
<p>The lesson I learned from this and my subsequent 30 years working with outputs in the real world is that there are WAY more quality inputs than the most selective schools have seats (grad and undergrad), so it follows that there are many, many quality inputs accepting seats much further down the ladder than some here would like to admit. </p>
<p>Touché to:</p>
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<p>At least B-schools are baldly trying to pick winners in business and have a few years of work experience to look at. In HS, who would you have predicted would be more successful financially?
- The math whiz with national awards who went to Harvard.
- The engineer who was also a violin virtuoso who went to MIT.
- The kid who played computer games 90% of his waking hours during HS (presumably outside of class, as he did graduate, though come to think of it, he didn’t really make an impression in class) and attended the public state flagship.</p>
<p>Turned out that it was Gamer Dude, who founded an online gaming company. He did go to a M7 b-school, BTW, but that was after he had sold his company for millions.</p>
<p>I don’t know about you, but I don’t buy a new car every year for 4-5 years. The cost of those schools is more on part with a brand new Aston Martin DB9 for less than 4 years at a top school. Even if I could afford one of those, there is no way I would spend that kind of money on a car. (or a school)</p>
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<p>The kid who makes the most money. There is no way to answer this question from the three scenarios you provide.</p>
<p>HS kids are still chosen by colleges based on their success records: GPA, test scores, ECs, essays, recommendations – all the “work” experience HS kids have to show.</p>
<p>I don’t know how in the world you think you can figure out (or why you’d want to) a high schooler’s future financial success.</p>
<p>Juliexoxo is clearly a not-very-knowledgeable and not-very-well-traveled high schooler. Anyone with any sophistication understands that the set of preferred colleges varies by region and the Ivies are just as regional as the Dukes and Vandys and Northwesterns and Rices of the world. It’s fashionable to think that everyone aspires to the Ivies, but that’s a very I’m-so-sophisticated-I’ve-never-left-the-Northeast mentality. I had that mentality myself a long time ago since I’m originally from the Northeast, but then I grew up.</p>
<p>@ChoatieMom:</p>
<p>Exactly. At the HS level, it’s almost a crapshoot (and not just financially; you could use another metric if you like). And not quite a crapshoot, as HYPS(MC) still get a higher percentage of the top talent, in general in most fields. But it’s like trying to predict which HS prep football stars will become NFL Pro Bowlers. The power programs in college football will amass the most 5-stars, and they will in general produce more NFL Pro Bowlers as well, but some top recruits would still choose Boise St., and just because you go to 'Bama doesn’t mean you will make it in the NFL. Also, some football programs like Wisconsin and Iowa and Boise have a better track record of turning average 3-star recruits in to NFL draftees than many power programs.</p>
<p>@Juliexoxo
UMich a school for rejects? HOW is Michigan a school for rejects? It has one of the best business programs in the nation (above all ivies but penn) and also one of the best engineering programs (tied with Cornell and above all other ivies). If anything, it is not a school where HYP rejects go. It’s where different-minded people go. </p>
<p>Before I left for HBS, my staff gave me a tee-shirt (from Moe’s) that read, “Harvard, the Michigan of the East”. They thought I just couldn’t get in to Michigan.</p>