A Startling Statistic at UCLA

Parents Forum
441

<p>those issues you are talking about are economic not racial
My daughter worked in an elementary school that is the site school for the homeless elementary children in the district-
She worked specifically with a 5th grade classroom and became close to several of the children that she tutored through the CItyYear program.
One girl who along with her brother was living in a shelter with their mother, and was supposed to be going to an aunts while her mother entered rehab.
D didn't see her for a while, and figured that the girls mother must have been accepted into treatment ahead of schedule, although she was disappointed to not be able to say goodby to her
Unfortunately, what she and the school eventually found out was, that the mother had moved the children from the shelter, to under a bridge, because they don't let you do drugs in the shelter.
She sold the childrens medications, to get drugs for herself.</p>

<p>Not a race issue</p>

442

<p>katliamom, do you think you accurately summarize an argument against racially based Affirmative Action in college admissions, that it should be eliminated because a few white kids might not get admitted? I would call that a straw man.</p>

443

<p>The questions surrounding the racially based AA debate is going great guns on this thread and with good reason - there is a lot of unresolved emotional baggage involved just as there is an attempt to get to the bottom of social equity and fair access to education on all levels. </p>

<p>In answer to the "so what" question - well, on that score I think there is a resounding "so what" that will probably set off more controversy and debate down the line:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.educationnews.org/Commentaries/What_Impact_Will_the_Two_New_Justices_have_on_Education.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.educationnews.org/Commentaries/What_Impact_Will_the_Two_New_Justices_have_on_Education.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

444

<p>On a national scale, there are far more poor whites than poor blacks. Socioeconomic considerations will (if done fairly) will benefit more whites than blacks. Asians are often discriminated against in our society.</p>

<p>AA is racial discrimination, by definition. If we believe in and practice racial discrimination, what does that make us? </p>

<p>Please don't say "so what" when talking about the students who were not given the opportunity because they were white or asian. The problem is that those students will never know who they were. Racial discrimination, if allowed at any level, opens the door to further racial discrimination. IF past discrimination is an acceptable standard to use racial discrimination, then when else is it ok to racially discriminate. If a school believes that they need AA for a diverse student body, then when else can they use racial discrimination. </p>

<p>Racial discrimination is wrong, and destructive to society. Most people long for the day when a person will be judged by the content of their character and not by the color of their skin.</p>

445

<p>Mam1959:</p>

<p>
[quote]
And how in the heck AA as practiced at a few elite universities is supposed to help this problem - the real elephant in the room - is beyond me.

[/quote]
It is a gradual process. And I think it is more effective than anything. You take a black kid, put them in a crucible wherein they are having to compete with and learn from the best minds in the entire world, and you do this for four long years, that kid likely will never be the same. All his defeatism and self-doubt will be rooted out so completely he will look at the world eagerly and wonder which part of it to gobble up first. That means you now got one black kid converted from a potential mouse into a definite tiger. And that kid is gonna grow up to marry a tiger. And there is just no way the two of them are gonna give birth to mice. I think AA, just at the elites alone, has done this thousands of times. I think the pay off for blacks, and for the country, has been tremendous. Yeah. you still have a ton of blacks who are lost. But you also have a small, but steadily growing number of these tigers I’ve mentioned too. One of them is now on the Supreme Court, though he seems to have forgotten the leg up that put him there.</p>

<p>Not every black kid needs AA. The black kids at your daughter’s school are no doubt gonna go out and do great things because they now expect this of themselves, due to their upbringing. I know my kids are gonna go out and shake up the world no matter who ignores their gifts. They are gonna do this because I raised them from infancy to do exactly this. But there are just tons and tons of black kids who know they can do the same things, but who haven’t really had the training to pull it off. They do well, but not as well as they could. There are even more blacks who are gifted, but who haven’t yet figured out that they have what it takes to do the same things. I think AA can help them as they see others much like themselves, finally getting the resources and exposure to new experiences, to pull off some great stuff.</p>

<p>I don’t think AA is a silver bullet. It is just one part of a comprehensive plan that we need to heal the problems caused by a most brutal and devastating treatment of blacks by American society. Yeah. Parents are the key, but they are not all. Here is Ben</a> Carson. The guy is from Yale and the University of Michigan. He was just this thuggish fatherless black kid who was on his way to prison just like so many tens of thousands of black kids today. But his uneducated mom stepped in and gave him a very simple, rigorous program of discipline. From this, the kid discovered that he could do more than just be a thug. He developed, and then applied to Yale. Suppose Yale had just compared this kid’s application to all his white counterparts who had access to experiences this black kid couldn’t even hope to have. Suppose Yale had just made a straight quantitative comparison of applications and chosen those with the highest scores only. No way would this guy have gotten into Yale. I am sure he did well in school, but he would have been completely lost in a sea of people who did much better on just the raw numbers.</p>

<p>Fortunately, Yale (and UMich) had good sense. It looked at the whole story here, and I am sure one of the first things it saw was that this kid was black. But that was not all, his being black likely brought their attention to the fact that he was also capable. In! Now the whole world is benefiting from just this one Yale trained guy – ONE black guy. And you just know this guy’s kids are not gonna be on the thug track, but are now on track to strive for greater things. And this ONE black guy has given hope to a thousand other black guys. Tons of black kids, just because of this ONE Yale trained black guy, are now wondering if maybe they can do the same thing. Yale did this using just a few measly dollars, and working with this ONE black guy. And this story by varying degrees is being written all across the elite schools. So we might scorn them for it, but there are a lot of healed and healing people all across the earth now who are singing very high praises to this ONE guy, and through him to the University of Michigan and to Yale.</p>

446

<p>Look, I am not raining on the AA parade - I am glad some people have benefitted from it. And while Ben Carson is a great story, I am not persuaded he would have been any less successful had he gone to, let's say, a Maryland or an Ohio State, or a Howard University. This doesn't mean that I don't think it is a good thing he went to Yale and Michigan - just that lets don't confuse cause and effect. Carson is good at what he does because he is bright and earned it - and not just because he went to Yale. </p>

<p>The amount of energy and time and rancor that is generates is grossly disproportionate to the amount of people it helps. And the inter-generational benefits are indeed an attractive prospect - but again, it helps only a small few and even then NAEP and other statistics reflect that in the inter-generational benefits are really disapointing (meaning that the correlation between academic success and income breaks down when it comes to black students). One can really conclude it is much ado about nothing - if it makes you feel better - this premise applies to whites who feel excluded as well - statistically they really can't point to AA as a reason for exclusion. </p>

<p>I live near DC and PG County. And the schools are so bad in these jurisdictions that the existence of AA (or not) is simply and wholly irrelevant to 95% of the black students in these jurisdictions (at least in DC). They might as well be on the moon when it comes to applying to any reasonable four year college. The schools there are not run for the students - they are employment agencies of last resort and the parents are not sufficiently involved. We have scarce resources. We ought to be applying them first and foremost to this problem, rather than arguing about which privileged few ought to get a preference to one of 30 or 40 elite schools.</p>

447

<p>but wouldnt he have gotten accepted at Yale without AA?</p>

<p>My concern is that for every Ben Carson- there are two Flo Flaglers ( fake name). One woman that I know much better than I wish I did, was a recent arrival to the Seattle school district, ( her husband was hired from Detroit to a top job) The school district is always eager for more African American principals, and they assigned her to a grade school- she did such a poor job, that the whole school community including teachers recommended that she leave.
The next year, my daughters school was given her as an interim principal- we were told that it was a one year position and the district promised that if it didn't work out, we could do a search.
I was head of the parent group- she didn't show up for planned meetings with parent board- when she set the time- she was not reachable when emergencies hit- no one knew where she was- including her secretary- she tried to close long standing programs at the school and instead bring in others that the community didn't want- despite her temporary position. any problems in school she dismissed as race related and that those who had a problem were racist ( this is a very diverse school both racially and economically)
She hired teachers that weren't familar with the school or its mission- some who were downright inappropriate ( for example one man called the kids names- while parents were in his class room and repeatedly scratched inside of his pants constantly)
After the year was up- she became angry that the school did not want to make her position permanent and told us that she didn't have to worry about a job, the district would find her another one.
THey did- another elementary school in a very diverse part of city-
They also have had huge problems with her and her leadership and she has been reassigned yet again- only this time the district didn't take the chance of assigning her to be principal of another school, they promoted her to a district leadership position in administration!
She shouldn't be working above a classroom teacher position- so why give her a promotion?
because they still want to keep her husband at his job?</p>

448

<p>That is called AA in action.</p>

449

<p>Mam1959:</p>

<p>
[quote]
Look, I am not raining on the AA parade - I am glad some people have benefitted from it. And while Ben Carson is a great story, I am not persuaded he would have been any less successful had he gone to, let's say, a Maryland or an Ohio State, or a Howard University.

[/quote]
Yale is among the finest schools in the world, with resources and students about which other schools can only dream. Carson may have done very well elsewhere, but he didn’t. He instead enjoyed the superior resources at Yale and is now producing superior results. Had there been no AA anywhere, as people are advocating, he very well may have ended up at a school offering opportunities much more inferior to those offered by Yale. My point is, I think because Yale perhaps had the latitude to check out his story and accept him because of it, Carson likely gained access to the best resources in the world – and now we are all reaping benefits from it – from just ONE black guy.</p>

<p>
[quote]
This doesn't mean that I don't think it is a good thing he went to Yale and Michigan - just that lets don't confuse cause and effect. Carson is good at what he does because he is bright and earned it - and not just because he went to Yale.

[/quote]
As I said, it was because of a combination of this guy’s talent, his mother’s simple but effective intervention, and Yale’s probable use of AA that brought it all together so that this guy could get the very best resources the world offers. Now we are all benefiting from this interplaying of forces surrounding just ONE guy, just ONE black guy. This same interplay is also surrounding thousands of others, and I think by varying degrees the world is reaping a tremendous benefit from it.</p>

<p>
[quote]
The amount of energy and time and rancor that is generates is grossly disproportionate to the amount of people it helps. And the inter-generational benefits are indeed an attractive prospect - but again, it helps only a small few…

[/quote]
Well, I think we cannot merely reduce the thing only to those being helped directly. There are millions who also see them and whose self-doubt is as a result being brought into question. I know about Ben Carson because I heard about him and his famous surgical separation of those co-joined twins. When I first heard the story and saw how fantastic it all was, I thought Carson was a white guy because it just didn’t seem to me a black guy would be doing all this. I mean, I saw white folks in tears, saying how much they loved this man, and I just assumed he was white. When I saw a picture of the guy, I nearly dropped dead. But you can bet this little episode from ONE guy, had the subtle effect of causing me to question my assumptions. There was a very complex interplay of forces at work, with Carson on one side telling me the sky is the limit, and the past on another telling me white folks will never allow or accept the success of a black guy. No serious breakthrough came out of it. It was a little thing. But combined with a lot of other little things like it helped caused me to take definite action for the health of my own family. So I think we are all benefiting almost infinitely, on and on and on, millions of us, from the one little decision by Yale.</p>

<p>
[quote]
and even then NAEP and other statistics reflect that in the inter-generational benefits are really disapointing (meaning that the correlation between academic success and income breaks down when it comes to black students). One can really conclude it is much ado about nothing…

[/quote]
I can’t possibly conclude this, when my own heart is in part by this one case here, filled with hope to keep pushing onward. Carson’s story is combining now with my own little, terribly insignificant story. And my story is combining with those of my children, whose stories are gonna combine with millions. It takes this sort of hope, compounding over a lot of time, to fix the problems caused by American history. It was hope that slavery chipped away and then pulverized over a lot of time. I think with the combination I am talking about here, we can get it back.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I live near DC and PG County. And the schools are so bad in these jurisdictions that the existence of AA (or not) is simply and wholly irrelevant to 95% of the black students in these jurisdictions (at least in DC). They might as well be on the moon when it comes to applying to any reasonable four year college. The schools there are not run for the students - they are employment agencies of last resort and the parents are not sufficiently involved. We have scarce resources. We ought to be applying them first and foremost to this problem, rather than arguing about which privileged few ought to get a preference to one of 30 or 40 elite schools.

[/quote]
I think you are overlooking the fact of the built-in potential of even the least of us. Carson’s mom had a third-grade education, for crying out loud. The woman could hardly read. She had her kid write papers that she could not even read herself, glancing at the papers, deciding to reject it here, deciding to accept it there – just to mix things up a little. It had an obviously fantastic effect on her son, an effect that Yale picked up on and conditioned into the guy who is now blessing the whole world. I think we ought not just say we have limited resources, so lets just end AA and then dedicate the resources elsewhere. We know AA can have fantastic benefits. We know simple parental input can also have fantastic benefits. We know that combining parental input with AA can have comprehensively superior results that may in short time completely eliminate the ravishes of the past. We ought not look at this as an “either/or” situation. We could take what we know works and then discover how to get it to the greatest number of people. It would be a sad thing to have single moms like Carson’s working for the benefit of their kids, only to see those kids being thrown to the trash heap of percentages.</p>

<p>We need those kids out there, front and center, using the best resources in the world, so that we can encourage others and heal the brutal racial discrimination that got us here in the first place.</p>

450

<p>How would the person who got "bumped" performed? We will never know.</p>

451

<p>EK:</p>

<p>
[quote]
but wouldnt he have gotten accepted at Yale without AA?

[/quote]
It is a matter of probability without AA. You got one black kid with quantitative results that were probably average or slightly below average for a place like Yale. You got upwards of twenty-two thousand kids applying to Yale for something like 1300 seats. It just doesn’t look good for the black kid, unless someone takes in consideration the whole story, including race and historic discrimination against that race.</p>

<p>
[quote]
My concern is that for every Ben Carson- there are two Flo Flaglers ( fake name). One woman that I know much better than I wish I did, was a recent arrival to the Seattle school district…

[/quote]
What you’ve described here is apparently people who ONLY took race in consideration. That is not AA. That is just weird.</p>

452

<p>To Drab,
To be honest, I think that is precisely why most whites are against AA: they think they will be discriminated against in favor of lesser qualified minorities.</p>

453

<p>The Michigan AA case never took past discrimination into account. It is interesting that many of you are considering this to be a substantial factor. A student should benefit from the past discrimination against people who happen to be of the same ethnic background?</p>

454

<p>Emeraldkity:
You say, Asians are both better educated and doing better economically that any other group in the country.</p>

<p>But that is not exactly true. SOME Asians are better educated and doing better economically. But many Asians are lagging behind, for example the Hmong, many Vietnamese, Laotians and Cambodians do not fit the successful-Asian stereotype. I find it interesting that the Asians doing the worst are Asians affected to some degree or another, by the Vietnam war.</p>

455

<p>
[quote]
but wouldnt he have gotten accepted at Yale without AA?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>You make this statement based on? Unless you have seen every application and the stats of every student admitted to Yale that year, you cannot say as to whether or not the student was an "AA admit" because you don't know what he brought to the table.</p>

<p>Unless one presents perfect scores, and perfect grades (which is very highly unlikely) then how do you categorize or do you categorize the students that he may have performed better than.</p>

<p>If we are speaking antecdotally, my D has a friend who is asian, who will be starting Penn Law this fall and was admitted with a 3.1 gpa. Since basically no one on campus would know anything about her other than what she was willing to share, how many would consider her an AA admit?</p>

456

<p>
[quote]
Since basically no one on campus would know anything about her other than what she was willing to share, how many would consider her an AA admit?

[/quote]
Yeah. The answer is, we can’t know at all. But too many whites love to assume that if their kid doesn’t get in and a black guy does, it just HAS to be because of AA. I read some white guy whining on and on about his daughter not getting into Princeton despite that she had a 1480 SAT or something like that (sorry, I just am not good with remembering these numbers, but I know it was high 1400s). He was complaining that AA kept her out. I remember thinking that the guy was just plain nuts. It could easily have been that my kid would have been rejected and his kid accepted because the situation of admissions seems a lot more complex than just these crazy test scores. So when I look at the whites as individuals, I certainly don’t think pro-white AA was at play and I even have a lot better reason than the white guy does, to suspect this, given the long awful history.</p>

<p>I don’t think it rational to make these assumptions about individuals. I think it is just mean spirited. Yet, I do think it is healthy to keep AA for the cases of those individuals in certain groups who can use it. I don’t really know whether Carson and Thomas actually benefited from AA. I do know that millions are in the exact kinds of situations both these guys were in, and that many among them could benefit from AA, giving a benefit to us all.</p>

457

<p>"But too many whites love to assume that if their kid doesn’t get in and a black guy does, it just HAS to be because of AA."</p>

<p>well you just have to live with it. You can't have it both ways. When the published numbers for admission statistics at three elite universities say that being an African American has 225 point (old scale) advantage, it is easy to understand where that stereotyping comes from.</p>

458

<p>
[quote]
When the published numbers for admission statistics at three elite universities say that being an African American has 225 point (old scale) advantage, it is easy to understand where that stereotyping comes from.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I am interested in seeing the data. Could you please provide the source and the schools that have released this data.</p>

459

<p>sybbie sure</p>

<p><a href="http://opr.princeton.edu/faculty/Tje/EspenshadeSSQPtII.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://opr.princeton.edu/faculty/Tje/EspenshadeSSQPtII.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

460

<p>The study does not show that if you are African American you get 225 points on a 1600 point scale. That would be ridiculous since a black scoring 1600 will then be given an 1825. The study is quantifying the effective result of preferences. It actually confirms what we already know, that AA gives a leg up (equivalent to upwards of 230 points, to put the matter in numeric perspective) to members of the most underprivileged groups, taking away virtually nothing from whites, and leaving Asians as by far the most over represented of all minorities. It would not really be Affirmative Action if it did otherwise.</p>

<p>The fantastic thing about the study is that it really shows how destructive ending AA will be to underprivileged minorities. It is just as I suspected. Black and Hispanic admissions would be devastated, white admissions would stay the same, and Asians would become even more over represented. The whole point of AA is to address issues of discrimination that have put minorities in their state in the first place</p>

<p>You know, we can debate whether AA effectively addresses these historical problems. We can disagree in civility about the solutions. But to deliberately try to make black kids feel awful by stereotyping all blacks just because some blacks think they need the helpful medicine of AA, speaks much more about the mean spirits of those doing the stereotyping than it does about the black students who are trying to get an education. I say, fine. If people want to be evil here, carelessly and deliberately stereotyping the strong right along with those who need help to make gains, then it is a very noble thing when the strong willingly pays this price.</p>