<p>A rep at the University of Michigan hearings said that if they did not use AA, they may well not have any black law students at their school. The boost is far greater than people realize. Please do not refer to URM's as underprivileged, as many are not. AA lasts a lifetime: undergrad, grad, gov contracts, employment, ect..</p>
<p>
[quote]
The boost is far greater than people realize.
[/quote]
And so is the discrimination that causes a need for this, by comparison, very small boost. Without it, even those from underprivileged groups who score perfectly very likely will be thrown to the trash heap of percentages when we most need them in front-- leading the way.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Please do not refer to URM's as underprivileged, as many are not.
[/quote]
Indeed, but as a group, blacks certainly are underprivileged in relation to everyone else. And they are in this state because, as historian Roger Wilkins has pointed out, Blacks have a 375-year history on this continent: 245 involving slavery, 100 involving legalized discrimination, and only 30 involving anything else (Wilkins, 1995). Jews and Asians, on the other hand, are populations that immigrated to North America and included doctors, lawyers, professors, and entrepreneurs among their ranks. Moreover, European Jews are able to function as part of the White majority. To expect Blacks to show the same upward mobility as Jews and Asians is to deny the historical and social reality that Black people face. <a href="http://www.uwosh.edu/affirm-act/aaoffice.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.uwosh.edu/affirm-act/aaoffice.html</a></p>
<p>Parts of the study refered to post # 459 is based on a previous study by Espenshade, Chung, and Walling Admission Preferences
for Minority Students, Athletes, and Legacies at Elite Universities. Social Science Quarterly 85(5):142246, 2004.</p>
<p>Objective. This study examines how preferences for different types of applicants exercised by admission offices at elite universities influence the number and composition of admitted students. Methods. Logistic regression analysis is used to link information on the admission decision for 124,374 applications to applicants' SAT scores, race, athletic ability, and legacy status, among other variables. Results.*** Elite universities give added weight in admission decisions to applicants who have SAT scores above 1500, are African American, or are recruited athletes.*** A smaller, but still important, preference is shown to Hispanic students and to children of alumni. The athlete admission "advantage" has been growing, while the underrepresented minority advantage has declined. Conclusions. Elite colleges and universities extend preferences to many types of students, yet affirmative action-the only preference given to underrepresented minority applicants-is the one surrounded by the most controversy.</p>
<p>Findings:</p>
<p>Model 1 is estimated using only those cases that report race and SAT score. The odds ratios are roughly the same in the two models, apart from the effect of being a non-U.S. citizen. A comparison of the other models in Table 6 with Model 1 shows that each set of interaction terms is significant at the 0.001 level. **The penalty for scoring less than 1200 on the SAT is significantly greater for African-American and Hispanic students than the penalty for white students who score less than 1200 (Model 2). Similarly, the reward (i.e., increased likelihood of admission) that is produced by scoring more than 1300 is significantly smaller for African-American and especially for Hispanic students than the reward for white students who score more than 1300. **</p>
<p>Models 5 and 6 add athlete and legacy status, respectively, to Model 4. Being a recruited athlete significantly improves one's chances of being admitted to an elite university. The odds of acceptance for athletes are four times as large as those for nonathletes. Put differently, **the athletic advantage is roughly comparable to having SAT scores in the 1400s instead of the 1200s. Legacy applicants also receive preferential treatment in admissions. Children or other close relatives of alumni have nearly three times the likelihood of being accepted as nonlegacies. **The SAT effect is somewhat "steeper" when athlete status is controlled, but it changes little when legacy status is added. These results are partly explained by the fact that athletes in the applicant pools have lower average SAT scores than nonathletes (1298 vs. 1335), whereas there is a smaller gap between legacies (1350) and nonlegacies (1332).</p>
<p>The largest admission preferences are conferred on applicants who have SAT scores above 1400, who are African American or Hispanic, and who are athletes or legacies. </p>
<p>The athlete advantage is weaker than the preference for African Americans, but stronger than the preference for Hispanic or legacy applicants. The legacy preference, while substantial, is less than that shown to Hispanics. Using the estimated logistic regression coefficients, it is possible to convert the magnitude of these preferences to a common SAT metric. The bonus for African-American applicants is roughly equivalent to an extra 230 SAT points (on a 1600-point scale), to 185 points for Hispanics, 200 points for athletes, and 160 points for children of alumni. The Asian disadvantage is comparable to a loss of 50 SAT points.</p>
<p>The biggest flaw with the study overall is that it speaks to colleges would prefer to have and not what is actually happening in admissions at these schools (and there is a big difference between the 2). </p>
<p>While I would prefer to be independently wealthy, the reality is that I am going to get up in the morning and go to work becasue I don't want to live on the street.</p>
<p>Most elite schools (the ivies, AWS) don't give athlethic scholarships. Although these schools have a "preference" toward admitting this type of student, there is nothing in the study that indicates that this actually happens. An African American student who is a recruited athlete and has SAT scores over 1400 although 'preferred by elite schools " will in actuality have many options including and being more likely to to accept a full ride at a school that would give athletic/academic scholarships in a school that would definitely give them more exposure in their sport (ex: Duke/ Stanford) than to pay to attend an Ivy because they do not give either athletic or merit money.</p>
<p>Espenshade, Chung, and Walling conclude their article by stating:</p>
<p>The relative weights assigned to different student abilities are in constant motion, and our data indicate that admission officers at elite universities are placing a declining weight on belonging to an underrepresented minority student group, whereas the admission advantage accruing to athletes has been growing. By 1997, in fact, being a recruited athlete mattered more than any other type of admission preference we have examined. A subsequent article in this journal will consider the opportunity cost of admission preferences (Espenshade and Chung, forthcoming). Who are the winners and losers from current admission practices?</p>
<p>Examining preferences for recruited athletes and children of alumni in the context of admission bonuses for underrepresented minority applicants helps to situate affirmative action in a broader perspective. Many different student characteristics are valued by admission officers and receive extra weight in highly competitive admissions. It is all part of a process that views academically selective colleges and universities as picking and choosing from many different pools or queues in order to create a first-year class that best advances institutional values and objectives.</p>
<p>dross, way back you answered my post on 'passing'. I actually didn't mean this in the sense of fooling others about who you 'really' are. I believe I meant culturally, which of course you reached exactly with the Bali anecdote.</p>
<p>
[quote]
No serious breakthrough came out of it
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I'm beginning to realize why you seek breakthroughs with such scholarly devotion. Usually an insight has power in direct proportion to the habitual understanding it challenges or even replaces. Since so many of your reflexes are painfully negative, these insights into how you might be wrong about the way things are are always welcome indeed. Lets a little more light into your dark soul,..(same with me)</p>
<p>ucsd<em>ucla</em>dad,</p>
<p>Answering your post (#358), I say again that VA has 5 historically black public colleges/universities which attract the majority of African-American students in the state. So, unlike CA, VA is not underserving its black population when it comes to higher education. And again, I believe UVA is doing a superb job in recruiting, mentoring, and graduating its black students. Please read the links I listed from the Journal of Blacks in Higher Education. UVA is consistently touted (for 12 years in a row) for providing an exceptional education for black students.</p>
<p>In fact, other states are turning to UVA to help turn its underperforming schools around. In this article from the Philadelphia Inquirer, it states:</p>
<p>
[quote]
The Virginia program, launched in 2004 under Gov. Mark Warner, has shown some impressive early results, according to a Dec. 7, 2005, Education Week article. Seven of the first 10 schools in the program met improvement targets under federal law. None had achieved that status in the two previous years, the paper reported.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>So, you see, change can happen, but it comes down to commitment and leadership.</p>
<p>Here's another program that UCLA could institute: The College Guide Program</p>
<p>
[quote]
Through the pioneering College Guide Program, University of Virginia graduates have been instrumental in increasing the number of Virginia students applying to and attending colleges across the state.</p>
<p>Created at U.Va. and funded by a $623,000 grant from the Jack Kent Cooke Foundation, the program teamed 14 recent graduates with local guidance counselors in nine school districts throughout Virginia to bring a fresh perspective about college applications to students who might not otherwise pursue higher education.</p>
<p>The program has increased college enrollment numbers from several Virginia public school districts. In Damascus, one of the target districts, Holston High School has traditionally sent about 50 percent of its graduates on to some form of higher education. But this year, that number has risen to nearly 85 percent, including three students who were accepted at U.Va.....</p>
<p>.....The College Guide Program has become a national model for college access. Last week, the Jack Kent Cooke Foundation invited 175 institutions to apply for eight $1 million grants to create guide programs based on the U.Va. model.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Globalist:</p>
<p>I can see that you're quite proud of UVA and seem to belittle or not understand the efforts of the UCs. In my earlier posts I indicated some simple facts that many may miss if they don't consider the considerable difference in demographics between Va (and the NE, SE, Midwest in general) and Ca (and the West) - especially in the percentage of Af-Ams in the population of the state. The end result was that UVA had about the same proportion (50%) of Af-Ams attending relative to the percentage of Af-Ams in the population - i.e. Va is 20% black but only 10% of the students (1/2 the % in the general population) at UVA is black. This isn't much better than UCLA (6.8% of pop is black with about 3% at UCLA). Maybe the numbers are changing due to recent programs and we'll see different results when the data is studied a year or two from now. I'm not knocking UVA - I only used it as an example since you keep bringing it up as an example of what is right with racial programs. </p>
<p>Another thing many people don't understand, especially if they're not familiar with California, is that the state has a quite extensive public college system ranging from highly selective Universities (UCs), to less selective (CalStates), to community colleges that anyone can attend inexpensively and that have very good established pathways into the CalState and UC systems. The mission of the UCs is to provide an education for the top 12% academically of the state of California HS. It's not to meet some pre-defined racial targets. The CalStates target a wider academic audience and the CCs target everyone. This is how California can manage to have top-class Universities and still provide educational opportunities and growth to everyone. </p>
<p>The implication that the UCs and state of California are doing nothing or next-to-nothing to address this issue is just wrong. I've provided links in previous posts on this thread indicating the many efforts UCLA and other UCs are doing in this area. Check them out. I've checked out the links you provided and I agree that there are good ideas there that Ca can use and Ca probably has some good programs Va could benefit from. I'm sure there is more they can do and will do, just as there is more that Va and any other area could do and probably will do as new programs are rolled out. There's always room for improvement and new ideas. I'm sure you, Dross, others, and I could come up with many ideas ourselves. I don't believe in racial discrimination as a valid basis for 'adjusting the numbers' so I'd never accept that solution since it will deny opportunity to people based strictly on race. In California, the group most impacted wouldn't be mine, it'd be Asian since they as a group happen to do well academically despite other struggles and are now the majority at UCLA despite being a minority in the population. Hopefully people will learn from them rather than think they're a part of the problem.</p>
<p>ucsd<em>ucla</em>dad,</p>
<p>As you know, I agree with what you're saying here; and I believe that CA has a much larger population to serve than VA.</p>
<p>I am also a graduate of UCLA (albeit 20+ years ago) and from what I can recollect from the Bronze Age (as my kids put it), there was quite a bit of diversity amongst the students on campus. Kind of, dare I say it, reflecting the diversity of Los Angeles in the mid-80's. I acutally worked with a Ch.E. Master's candidate who was one of their top resources for the Berber language. I'm not so sure on how many public universities even offer such a program (or did in the 80's), but for anyone to state that UCLA lacks diversity has obviously never been there. While one might find division between what's known as North Campus (humanities, arts) and South Campus (science/math/engineering). I can't honestly say that I saw any noticeable racial divisions amongst students. Which doesn't mean that it did not exist; just that it wasn't apparent to the kids attending that school (i.e. me, in the 80's).</p>
<p>From what I understand from my D and S's HS counselors, JuCos are a relatively inexpensive way (and offer acceptance to anyone) to get most of the requirements out of the way, and many of them partner with a UC or CSU, for acceptance into the program after they have completed a certain amount of GE units. Obviously, this isn't for everyone, but is it not a start?</p>
<p>Someone correct me if I'm wrong here, but I'm betting CA has a fairly extensive UC/CSU/JC system compared to most states (based on population alone), so is it so wrong for someone who doesn't have the stats to get into Cal/UCLA initially to take alternative routes? What all of us Humanities types did at UCLA was to take our required science core at the local JC--units transferred and the GPA was not affected. It's called playing the system to your advantage.</p>
<p>Erin's Mom:</p>
<p>You're correct and confirmed the points I was trying to make about Ca's system of colleges and accessibility to everyone while also providing top-notch nationally ranked Universities. The idea that if one doesn't make it into specifically UCLA based on their academics and a few other non-racially-biased factors somehow dooms that person is ridiculous. California has many other universities/colleges, some more selective in certain areas and some less selective, that serve the whole population and anyone who wants to pursue college.</p>
<p>Many people start with the CC-->transfer to UC/CalState route. Many people who would qualify to enter directly into a UC/CalState choose CCs due to lower cost, closer to home, want to try out classes at a different level, aren't ready to leave home, and other reasons. Others go the CC route because they didn't get accepted into the UC/CalState of their choice due to grades, etc. but improve their grades at the CC and then move on to the UC/CalStates. Some people are late bloomers, some are very bright but just aren't serious enough in HS but do very well later.</p>
<p>If an URM just doesn't have the academic qualifications to make it into the most academically selective of California's colleges (UCB, UCLA, UCSD), they have their choice of many other options. They do however, have to make the choice to pursue it. If, regardless of the outreach programs and opportunities presented to them, one chooses to follow a different path, I don't think UCLA in particular should somehow be blamed for their decisions. The 'blame' if you will has been pontificated at length on this forum and ranges from 100-300 year old history to state budgets, to racial discrimination, to the lack of racial discrimination (mostly through AA), to the disintegration of the family, to the school system, to the impact of 'other' minorities, to being kept down though governmental institutions such as welfare, etc. I think society should continue to work to improve the real welfare of everyone in a non-racially discriminatory way but in the end though, it'll be the individual who will need to step up to the opportunities before them.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I think society should continue to work to improve the real welfare of everyone in a non-racially discriminatory way but in the end though, it'll be the individual who will need to step up to the opportunities before them.
[/quote]
I think this sort of appeal sounds fine on the surface, and I am sure many who have not felt the weight of history upon them will be very much attracted to it because for them, history can be easily swept aside.</p>
<p>While I agree with the notion of promotion by merit, I disagree with how we are to get there. You mentioned learning from Asians. But Asians have very little to teach us about digging out of the pit created by American history. They came here loaded with entrepreneurs, doctors and lawyers, and have expanded from that sort of base. Blacks certainly had nothing of this sort of start. We all know how blacks basically got here and by what debilitating and brutally discriminatory means they were kept here.</p>
<p>In view of our history, then, I think demands that we ignore race, to instead rely purely on numbers when it comes to admissions, effectively places the burden of creating a meritocracy directly upon the weakest, most devastated members of our society. It means blacks, who have had their bodies taken, abused, and squeezed for someone elses gain, who have endured at least a century of vigorous legal discrimination after the end of slavery, must compete as equals with those who have benefited from this ruthless treatment. I think any reasonable person must conclude this is clearly an unreasonable expectation. It seems to me if anyone is to pay the initial cost of creating a fair society, it ought not be those who have been exploited for nearly their entire tenure in this place.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I think this sort of appeal sounds fine on the surface, and I am sure many who have not felt the weight of history upon them will be very much attracted to it because for them, history can be easily swept aside.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>And what if one who has felt the weight of history agrees with this, like a Jew? </p>
<p>Why stop with American history. Why not take the entirety of history into account? Pre-American history obviously influenced American history.</p>
<p>
[quote]
And what if one who has felt the weight of history agrees with this, like a Jew?
[/quote]
As I have said previously, I have a very deep and abiding respect and honor for Jews. I very much identify with them, have studied them quite in depth (for a gentile), and wish them the very best they can possibly acquire. But the appeals I make here cannot apply to them for the following reasons.</p>
<p>Jews are largely able to function as part of the white majority that now takes benefits from the discrimination against and exploitation of blacks. Moreover, they came here expressly to gain these benefits, unlike blacks. Additionally, their suffering took place elsewhere, and not for the development of an America in which they by law could not participate as free human beings.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Why stop with American history. Why not take the entirety of history into account? Pre-American history obviously influenced American history.
[/quote]
The fundamental engine that brought about the America we are now all arguing about is not the bodies of Jews. It is the wounded bodies, and the crushed and rejected minds of blacks. That Jews were abused elsewhere and then escaped those places to come here to enjoy the result of black abuse does not give them a fit basis to make the same appeal I make here.</p>
<p>rorosen:</p>
<p>
[quote]
I'm beginning to realize why you seek breakthroughs with such scholarly devotion. Usually an insight has power in direct proportion to the habitual understanding it challenges or even replaces. Since so many of your reflexes are painfully negative, these insights into how you might be wrong about the way things are are always welcome indeed. Lets a little more light into your dark soul,..(same with me)
[/quote]
Well yeah. In truth, I am testing a lot of what I am saying here because I have rarely (if ever?) put the views to anyone, and I do wish to see if my assumptions on AA can be overthrown. Im the judge of when that happens, of course. So far, I see that AA needs to be eliminated chiefly because individuals, who have no direct part in our sordid history against blacks, could be mistreated by it. Also, EKs situation with her daughter has shown me, up close, that we really cant be too rigid about how we treat a program that takes race into account. Lastly, I have a really nagging suspicion that AA truly is damaging to blacks. All of these things make me want to abandon AA posthaste.</p>
<p>But I also see there is a need to apply some sort of severe pressure against the effect that history has had against blacks. I think AA opponents simply dismiss this with words like blacks are just going to have to step up , or Its been thirty years!, or I used to be on your side, but now I am a Bushie because of the blacks (sheesh). All of this shows me quite plainly that someone still has to hang in there for anything that helps blacks, even if only a little. Someone has to hang in because no one else is gonna pay sincere attention to the valid grievances of blacks. America will always just dismiss their concerns, much as many people here have done, and much as America has always done. I think you have actually shown the way, but not a soul here has detected it. You seem to be against AA, but you plainly realize that, as an American, you have an obligation to get close to the issue so that everyone can bury this thing once and for all. When it comes to the past, it seems too many of us want one thing: to ignore it, or at best, to dismiss it by meaningless platitudes.</p>
<p>Id like AA to end. It needs to end because we really have to get blacks, as a group, healthy and unburdened by the pains of history. But what America wants to do is turn its back on them, and let them sink or swim, though America has chopped off their arms and legs. The time to let blacks sink or swim has passed. It was right after slavery, when blacks repeatedly attempted to work themselves into American society, repeatedly attempted to build themselves and acquire the American dream. But they were repeatedly stopped cold by whites. Now, we are dealing with large numbers of people who are bitter and who truly dont think it is possible for them ever to be American. You dont just abandon these folks. You need to show them, by various means (perhaps including a very slow phasing away of AA and the establishment of effective supports of the black family), that they are wrong.</p>
<p>Dross:</p>
<p>One of the points I'm trying to make is that while there have undeniably been many injustices to Af-Ams, this is not a fault of UCLA and it shouldn't be up to UCLA (or IMO any college) to discriminate on the basis of race to accept Af-Ams while rejecting more qualified (yes, more qualified) people of some other race strictly based on their race (something they had no control over) with the assumption that they must be downtrodden, have had no chance, (an invalid assumption) and yet somehow will manage to perform at the high academic standard of others that were admitted at a higher threshold. </p>
<p>While I don't think things are quite as bleak as some of your posts imply (although I'm assuming you're just trying to make a point), I agree that there are issues that need to be addressed but they need to be addressed in ways other than lowering admissions standards and discriminating based on one's race. </p>
<p>What we really need is to increase the number of qualified candidates rather than lowering admissions standards. This has to be done at a much earlier level than when the individual is applying for college. It's not a simple problem and there won't be a simple solution yet I think progress is being made (look back 30 years, 60 years, 90 years). </p>
<p>While I agree that many ethnic groups do not have the same historical damage that was done to Af-Ams historically in this and other countries, I don't think the struggles of some of these other ethnic groups should be trivialized either. Not all Asians in this country come from a history of parents who are doctors and other high-level occupations. Many historical Asian immigrants were essentially indentured labor in an environment of discrimination (picture the railroad workers of the 1800s). Many recent immigrants have left their native countries after a life war and sometimes imprisonment. I've known Vietnamese boat people who left that war-torn communist country under and arrived here with no money, no knowledge of our culture, no English, etc. and have ended up doing quite well through a lot of hard work and a perception that this is a land of opportunity and freedom and they were going to take advantage of it. I think this perception might be missing for some Af-Ams (due to the historical points you've made) and that's not helping them to succeed. They need to somehow (the devil's in the details here) get past it. I know it's not as easily done as said. </p>
<p>Many Af-Ams have certainly succeeded quite well also despite the history. To assume that all blacks haven't wouldn't be correct. To assume that all blacks today come from a socio-economically disadvantaged background is also incorrect although I agree the percentages are higher for Af-Ams as a group than for some other ethnicities. If a study were to be done, perhaps it's this group of successful Af-Ams who should be studied to see how others might be helped.</p>
<br>
<p>we are dealing with large numbers of people who are bitter and who truly dont think it is possible for them ever to be American. You dont just abandon these folks.</p>
<br>
<p>I might easily say things here that are offensive to the casual reader but since I only care about your opinion, Dross, I send it out in the open as a sacrifice on the altar of openness.</p>
<p>When it comes to AA I would object if it affected me or family in a big way, such that someone benefits at our cost. Perhaps I will pm you with the details but I believe we came close to such a situation that would have made me quite resentful. So I must remember to live with that awareness of what might have been, before I become too certain of my for and againsts.</p>
<p>I also recognize that an objection to AA is sometimes code for racism just as complaints about Israel are sometimes a guise for anti-Semitism. Not that there arent reasonable objections to be made on a logical informed basis but I dont believe the majority of people come to conclusions on that basis rather they use facts and figures to back up a perceptual disposition that is as it is because of more personal and complex causes.</p>
<p>heres the ugly perception behind the anti-aa viewpoint: white people see that whites are really a pretty pathetic bunch of ill looking miserable zombies droning from crappy job to fast food fix to mediocre entertainment to abusive unsatisfying relationship. welcome to the american dream. do you personally know anyone youd want to be? I dont. even the vaunted movie stars seem empty to me. Though I would be young again,...</p>
<p>Then we look at blacks and despite the valid grievances see many people who are ready to be offended, have counterproductive cultural icons and habits, engage in an imbalance of violence,,,etc., and have in theory been the focus of the national attention for quite some time with very little acknowledgment of progress. Whites also look at the depiction of africa and think it is better in any case to be here where the rest of the world seems clamoring to enter. We look at the public schools and think there is quite enough money being spent and only bad attitudes hold people back. </p>
<p>I myself am not the type to extend a hand to someone snarling at me. I would however devote myself entirely to creating harmony among people if i thought there was any meaning to the phrase. But theres not because everyone to me is corrupt, everyone has a motive and strategy for insuring the advancement of their own position. Humor is my only out and the love of my family because that is where I have a chance of understanding the complex motivations and imaginings that lead astray the best intentioned. But political understanding is way beyond me. It isnt that i cant think abstractly. Its just that the dimensions are too vast for meaningful comprehension. and all the forms by which the particulars of human experience are relayed to me, word and image, just dont add up to a pretty picture.</p>
<p>I might add that I have had every advantage and that on the surface many would envy me,..but do I feel 'white'? do I feel 'american'?</p>
<p>i do however believe in treasuring and protecting children. before they inevitably become habitual adults in the cycle of doom.</p>
<p>dross - you have done a good job explaining the sensitivities and burdens that black people face - people who do not live it often don't have the same degree of emotional understanding. </p>
<p>But we do somehow need to get beyond the emotion and look at the data. And while it doesn't appear to me that affirmative action is program that significantly makes a lot of progress one way or the other, there certainly is data to support the opposite view. </p>
<p>Put this in context. On these boards an article printed in the WSJ was posted, written by an admissions director at a very good liberal arts college in Ohio. She clearly stated that her school discriminated in admission against women - and this is becoming a common phenomena. (Engineering schools excepted). The number of women going to college now significantly exceeds that of men (I believe the number is 7.7 million women in school to 5.5 million men), and the imbalance has all sorts of troubling societal implications. Even more disturbing to me is that I see the preference for males in admissions apparent now in some public schools. It is without question that women were discriminated against in admission to William and Mary this year - boys with appreciably lower scores and grades were admitted. In fact, there were many women who got admitted to UVa who were refused admission at W & M (including an all-state runner with old SAT's well over 1400). Anecodotal? Yes. Confirmed by local high school counselors. Yes. So gender discrimination is being practiced. </p>
<p>In any event, it troubled no one to raise the issue whether it is right to let boys off the hook - to re-allocate incentives - lowering the bar, whatever one deems to call it - and whether they should be rewarded in essence for their lesser diligence in studying (a big factor in the performance spread - just as with AA). But schools just don't want a school to turn female - because they fear that once the percentage gets to 60% or more - it will stay that way -and that they will have a much different campus, and frankly, a much different alumni base that they believe could imperil their financial standing. So schools are not by and large discriminating because they bow to the shibboleth of diversity, they are doing so because they see their future threatened (real or imagined). But again it really troubles no one to raise the issue of the incentives, or lack thereof, created by male preferences. But bring race into the equation? And the rancor and the emotion rockets up, as if the world would end without AA. The real problem data-wise is that AA would be fine with most everyone if it were a thumb on the scale for applicants - in practice, however, it has been much more than that - and it does call into question the issues of incentives, fairness and AA's place in putative meritocracies. These questions ought to be balanced agains the need to redress past sins against blacks.</p>
<p>mam:</p>
<p>The problem I have with the racial discrimination, and as you point out, gender discrimination, is that in the end some kid loses out strictly because they don't happen to be the desired race or in your example, the desired gender. These are both attributes the kid had no control over whatsoever yet it's being held against them. It was wrong a couple hundred years ago and it's wrong now. We need to get away from discrimination altogether.</p>
<p>THese are words of wisdom UCSD dad. Racial discrimination is wrong, and if we practice racial discrimination we cannot hope to eliminate its practice. If we open the door to racial discrimination, when else is it ok to use racial discrimination? How do we explain to our children that racial discrimination is ok sometimes? In my opinion, this board demonstrates that AA promotes racism among educated people. The issue of past discrimination was never even a factor in the last Supreme Court case. Yet, the majority of posters here are using this as their focus and justification. Why should a person recieve benefit based on the prior discrimination of another person? Discrimination based on Gender is also wrong.</p>
<p>uc dad</p>
<p>
[quote]
One of the points I'm trying to make is that while there have undeniably been many injustices to Af-Ams, this is not a fault of UCLA and it shouldn't be up to UCLA (or IMO any college) to discriminate on the basis of race to accept Af-Ams while rejecting more qualified (yes, more qualified) people of some other race strictly based on their race
[/quote]
According to the Princeton study so commonly posted here, this is not happening, at least not at schools such as UCLA. When whites and blacks score 1300 (likely higher now) or lower, these schools actually give a significant advantage to whites. Blacks only gain an advantage if they score 1400+ (likely higher now), and when we consider that blacks scoring at this level number only in the hundreds each year, we just arent talking about a lot of room to give any group a boost. I suspect this is in part why in a recent study, Asians are found not have acquired any boost in states that have banned AA. The blacks being selected are few, and well qualified. I suspect in each of these schools there are many whites and Asians scoring below every single one of these blacks.</p>
<p>I also suspect this general AA structure exists, by varying degrees, in colleges down the line, so that vast numbers of blacks, rather than being found in schools where Asians and whites vie for spots against them, are instead found in HBCUs, extension programs, and community colleges, where competition is not as steep.</p>
<p>
[quote]
While I don't think things are quite as bleak as some of your posts imply (although I'm assuming you're just trying to make a point),
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You merely need to enter into many of our communities, too many, to see the frustratingly bleak circumstances I am talking about. Teach the kids, and you will see how in far too many cases for it to be dismissed, thousands of Ben Carsons are being lost to drugs, violence, prisons, and death. And most of this comes from a loss of hope and faith in the American Dream. Most of the parents lack it, even those working jobs. Their parents lacked it. And so on. If we can get close to the situation, we would not be willing to casually dismiss or even minimize its existence.</p>
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I agree that there are issues that need to be addressed but they need to be addressed in ways other than lowering admissions standards and discriminating based on one's race.
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I dont think standards need to be lowered either. I in fact dont think standards are being lowered, even with AA. In the past, students certainly didnt get into all these schools by some rigid quantitative system. Many whites who have graduated these schools likely could not even hope to get into them under the increasingly rigid requirements used today. They got in by a variety of means, many of them terribly unfair to blacks. If we were to reduce college admissions merely to test scores and GPA, that would lower some other important standard now intact with AA. We cannot measure the potential of every individual by this cold approach.</p>
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What we really need is to increase the number of qualified candidates rather than lowering admissions standards. This has to be done at a much earlier level than when the individual is applying for college. It's not a simple problem and there won't be a simple solution yet I think progress is being made (look back 30 years, 60 years, 90 years).
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Yes. Agreed. Unfortunately, the problem that causes a lower number of qualified blacks, is profoundly attached to the fact that society has historically and vigorously discriminated against blacks since 1619, employing a built-in and most pervasive sort of racism that denied black progress on the basis on some alleged inferiority. The society even today impresses this racism on blacks, promoting whites and other groups. It has a terribly destructive impact on the performance of blacks and it is still at work against us. Twenty years ago I was so convinced of societys destruction of black performance that I took measure to fight against it in the case of my own kids. I obviously could not stop all of the disastrous effects of American society against blacks, but I have managed to nail many of them.</p>
<p>I am also convinced that our built-in sexism against women also is in large part the cause their lower performances, especially in the sciences, compared to men. I think over the long term, AA can help ease the effect of these problems by allowing colleges to comb underprivileged groups for the very best performers, who, perhaps to a student, will have better stats than many whites and Asians who are otherwise accepted into them. As blacks and women begin to see the possibilities before them, societys built-in stigma against these groups will diminish until it no longer has any teeth at all. I am utterly convinced of this, though I have no proof except for my own experiments.</p>
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While I agree that many ethnic groups do not have the same historical damage that was done to Af-Ams historically in this and other countries, I don't think the struggles of some of these other ethnic groups should be trivialized either
.
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Well, I certainly dont trivialize them. Most of them are simply irrelevant to this issue. They are irrelevant because these people came here essentially as entrepreneurs who were willing to incur hardship and challenge to gain opportunity. Even in the lowest of these cases entrepreneurship was/is at play, with labor being the product for sale. And almost all of these groups had significant numbers of professionals in their members so that the lowest of their members could eventually find jobs, representation, banking and finance opportunities. This just was not the case with blacks, the majority of whom come from slaves who were denied, legally, all of these growth opportunities.</p>
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I think this perception might be missing for some Af-Ams (due to the historical points you've made) and that's not helping them to succeed. They need to somehow (the devil's in the details here) get past it. I know it's not as easily done as said.
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Yes. It is easy to say they must get past it, just as it is easy to say a guy with no arms and legs must find a way to walk around. Saying it does not accomplish anything, good friend. I don't think it really means anything, or that touches the real problem or is even true. They dont need to get over it. All of us need to get over it. I personally dont think, humans being what they are, that most of these people can be helped directly. I think (and I certainly could be wrong) that we need solutions in place to give their kids just a bit of support. We also need to alert their families of just how American racism kills their kids. A lot of these parents, though too far gone to accomplish much themselves, will probably make great sacrifices for their kids, if they could really see just how amazingly destructive our society is to blacks.</p>
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Many Af-Ams have certainly succeeded quite well also despite the history. To assume that all blacks haven't wouldn't be correct. To assume that all blacks today come from a socio-economically disadvantaged background is also incorrect although I agree the percentages are higher for Af-Ams as a group than for some other ethnicities.
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In any group you will find some who are much more resilient than others. But I am now quite convinced that the forces I am talking about here are working against all blacks, rich and poor, even those from Africa and the Caribbean, even those who claim they are not being affected at all. </p>
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If a study were to be done, perhaps it's this group of successful Af-Ams who should be studied to see how others might be helped.
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I completely agree. I think not only should they be studied, I have always thought Jews could teach blacks a lot. It pains me that so many blacks seem to have problems with Jews. I think blacks need a massive change in culture that might require a general abandonment of many attitudes and practices that are commonly thought of as black. I think the current crop of so-called black leaders arent leading and that they ought also to be abandoned. Blacks no longer need leaders. They need thinkers. These changes can be facilitated. But when America threatens to cut what the vast majority of blacks know is helpful to them, it makes bringing about lasting change wondrously difficult.</p>
<p>rorosen:</p>
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I might easily say things here that are offensive to the casual reader but since I only care about your opinion, Dross, I send it out in the open as a sacrifice on the altar of openness.
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Well rest your mind. Nothing in the post offended me. I in fact share a lot of the same views.</p>
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When it comes to AA I would object if it affected me or family in a big way, such that someone benefits at our cost
So I must remember to live with that awareness of what might have been, before I become too certain of my for and againsts...
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Right. This is one of the two most important reasons why I would like to see AA ended. The problem is, if admissions is not a strictly quantitative exercise (as colleges claims), then how would we know it when we are personally affected by AA?</p>
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do you personally know anyone youd want to be? I dont. even the vaunted movie stars seem empty to me. Though I would be young again,...
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Haha. There is not a soul in this world that I would rather be other than me though, I must admit, I have such a deep respect for my wife that if God were to change me into her, I would not complain at all. I sometimes wish I could remain myself and yet be my wife all at the same time. In fact, my constant attempts to realize this dream by varied ways is in large part what marriage is to me.</p>
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Then we look at blacks and despite the valid grievances see many people who are ready to be offended, have counterproductive cultural icons and habits, engage in an imbalance of violence,,,etc., and have in theory been the focus of the national attention for quite some time with very little acknowledgment of progress.
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Yeah. I feel all of this myself the revulsion of it, the anger. I dont excuse it in the least. And when blacks engage in crime and are brought before the system, the last thing I think is that they need to be excused. Nail em. But I also know the system is brutally unfair to blacks and always has been since the beginning. I saw a documentary about a situation in which the female of a white couple was killed by the generic black male. When the crime was reported, cops patrolled the general area. They needed a black male and several blocks away from the crime scene decided any black male would do. They saw one walking along the sidewalk, a kid, around fourteen, on his way to work. Picked him up, busted him, planted evidence on him, beat him, forced him to confess, and threw him into the system to be ground up like beef. It was only because a remarkable team of lawyers, white public defenders, that this kid was set free. But my did the system put this kid and his family through a serious hell.</p>
<p>This happens all the time. It happens ALL the time. Blacks have been complaining about it forever. They are just profoundly bitter about it. This bitterness was behind the results of the OJ Simpson trial. Wed like to blame only blacks for this travesty. But the whole nation is at fault. Everyone is at fault. To me, none of this is an either/or thing. There is a lot of room for improvement everywhere with the system, with whites, and with blacks.</p>
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Whites also look at the depiction of africa and think it is better in any case to be here where the rest of the world seems clamoring to enter.
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Shoot. I look at Africa and think the same thing. But that surely doesnt blind me to the miseries right here in glorious America.</p>
<p>I am not African, and refuse to tell the lie that so many blacks seem willing to tell about this. That heritage has been deliberately stolen from me and it was stolen by America. I have no African people, do not know which nation in Africa my African ancestors hail from. I know no African language or anything of the sort. I am no more African than you are. On the other hand, I have white ancestors and not only do I know the country from which they originally hail, I also know some of their descendants to this very day. They are my relatives. I also speak their language my language. I love their music my music, their art, my art, their foods, my foods, their way of dress, my way, their thoughts, my thoughts. I am more European than anything else. But I am made an alien everywhere. I dont have Africa, but neither do I have America. I am comfortable with this. In fact, I think it is my alien status that allows me to stand apart from the jingoism that causes so many Americans to think far too highly of themselves than they should.</p>
<p>
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We look at the public schools and think there is quite enough money being spent and only bad attitudes hold people back.
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I think likewise. But I also cannot forget how experience and depression can debilitate the mind. There are many more ways to commit suicide than by merely putting a gun to your head. I think in a sense many blacks are just depressed, and large groups of them are locked in a suicidal attitude of defeatism. They see no way out, and are just biding their time. I think it is possible for depressed people to discover ways out of the black box they find themselves in. They must be willing to question their emotions and perceptions, no matter what they feel and think, and they must be willing to act on what they know to be healthy approaches to life, even if they feel no hope of acquiring positive results. As the results slowly come in and are positive, the person acquires a new and better perspective. That is just a tall order for most people. I think it means the vast majority of people who are really down and trapped, cannot get free on their own. So while I am just as angry as everyone else when I see blacks who have bad attitudes and who are self-destructive, I am also keep all this other stuff in mind.</p>
<p>
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I myself am not the type to extend a hand to someone snarling at me. I would however devote myself entirely to creating harmony among people if i thought there was any meaning to the phrase. But theres not because everyone to me is corrupt, everyone has a motive and strategy for insuring the advancement of their own position.
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Well yeah. But I think that is not all as bad as it seems. In fact, it is probably the only way we humans can make sense of existence. Ill tell you what. Up until the time I married, my life was just a fog. Man, I lived in a mist. There was just no point of the world because Id see all the humans prowling about, selfishly looking for pleasures wherever they could find them, and I was one of them. The whole thing just struck me as pretty doggone futile and yes, desperately corrupt. But, you know, in marriage you get this person for whom you just want to lay aside your own animal desires to try to see things as she sees them. And sometimes you find yourself getting real close at least by her reaction it seems you are. And it gets you to thinking about the potential for having a really meaningful life. You wanna also try hard to actually see and feel life as your kids see and feel it. And you discover they all see and feel it differently at least by their reactions it seems this way. In a way you are growing as you come in contact with all these different perceptions. The world itself gains a lot more shape and color because you can get more sense about how it is. Now youre interested inyoure your friends and neighbors see stuff. You find the world has stuff to it that you really had no idea about. </p>
<p>Too many people are just living in a very narrow spectrum of experience, holding desperately to their little assumptions, repeating them constantly as if the repetition represents newness, and not even questioning that the shape of things could be radically different from what they perceive. That is corrupt, yes. But I dont think is just HAS to be that way at least not all the time.</p>
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Humor is my only out and the love of my family because that is where I have a chance of understanding the complex motivations and imaginings that lead astray the best intentioned. But political understanding is way beyond me. It isnt that i cant think abstractly. Its just that the dimensions are too vast for meaningful comprehension. and all the forms by which the particulars of human experience are relayed to me, word and image, just dont add up to a pretty picture.
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I could be very wrong, but I think the same economy that governs the comfortable world of your family is also at work in this fantastically broad political world you have in mind. Now I dont really sense this as a matter of fact. I am just saying that I think it ultimately has to be true because, at the very lowest level of things, the human participants involved are all biologically the same. What I am trying to do is cut through to how people are seeing stuff and show them how I see it, so that we can maybe get rid of some of the needless complexity that we too easily accept.</p>
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I might add that I have had every advantage and that on the surface many would envy me,..but do I feel 'white'? do I feel 'american'?
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Hmmm. Why WOULDNT you? My goodness. Whiteness and blackness are so cut and dry in our society that, though I know they are arbitrary in nature, I wonder how one can not feel one or the other.</p>