A year ago, I was you... worrying about college (and Vanderbilt)

<p>kingofcrunk, you make a lot of fair and positive comments about your initial weeks on campus but you state you are unimpressed with the intellectual atmosphere at Vandy. I don’t think that is accurate…or that Vandy is any less “intellectual” in atmosphere than Emory, Duke or Northwestern. It is really more about using the vast resources offered daily at a school with a lot of breadth and attending events on a campus that houses several graduate schools as well. As much as we revere Haverford and Bowdoin…two wonderful schools our sons respect greatly and were admitted to…and it is fair to say they offer aspects of a kind of learning community you can’t recreate at a school of 6000…but the smaller LACs also have a lot less to offer in terms of daily calendar offerings, and variety in peers and events to enjoy over a spread of four years.<br>
It sounds to me more like you are mathematically more gifted than the average Vandy student who merely shows up with high math SAT scores…but can’t necessarily proceed to upper level college math…if you want friends who do enjoy some real discourse…you can find it. You haven’t been on campus very long (come on now, one half of one semester?) and I won’t even argue that the fratcentric thing isn’t real…or that there are people who are very pre professional about their lives…this is true at any great college of Vandy’s size and is not necessarily a bad thing. Vandy does have a mission to produce people ready for graduate educations and the professions but our son is also busy attending events at Blair and in the grad schools when time permits.<br>
Our son was admitted to three of the top LACs and he was in the mode of self selecting to colleges where discussion based courses were the norm. Let’s just say The Recession Ate his initial vision and College Hopes. We could no longer ante up our FAFSA. He took Vandy’s incredible financial offer and never looked back and really set about just being who he wants to be at Vanderbilt because he realized that over half the campus isn’t Greek and the town gown vibe at Vandy is excellent compared to many other peer college locations. He also has friends who are on Greek Row in the evening who are great people but he spends more time out and about with independents. He joined up in places where writing and oratory were required and met other students who also show up at Vandy’s rather extensive and generous enrichment programs sponsored by all sorts of departments, clubs and graduate schools…to hear speakers more than once a week. He went to so many of these sorts of things that he actually forgot to do his coursework in the library one semester a bit too often… and didn’t quite realize at first that homework was going to be different than in high school…nevertheless, he has made a fantastic group of friends. They got together and planned a theme and competed to share housing together for sophomore year. I know engineers who did this as well as more liberal arts majors and in my son’s house both science and liberal arts are represented.
my suggestion to you is for you to show up at the Hustler or the Orbis or the Torch and to start writing a column, and for you to also consider joining any other interest group you are on the fence about. Also apply for College Scholars…they open that up one more time at the end of this semester and these are fantastic windows into discussion based courses. Even without Scholars, there are many ways to spend a lot of time with the faculty at Vandy in your own chosen path. I think you are going to love your four years at Vandy, especially once you get further into your chosen academic path.</p>

<p>do you happen to know if there is any social stigma against those who say, were accepted into Vanderbilt early decision vs. normal decision vs. those who got in off the waitlist? are for example those who only got in off the waitlist looked down upon?</p>

<p>there are good reasons to go ED: being absolutely certain you belong at College X, family history at College X that means a lot to you, not being eligible for financial aid based on income so eliminating that from the picture, or generally being accepting of your FAFSA CSS Profile estimates and then also (see first reasons… strongly identifying with College X, and recognition that your odds of admission are better ED if you believe you fit in there and admissions agrees.) Fit matters a lot in admissions keeping in mind that “fit” from the admissions perspective is a very broad term that they hope brings together a very diverse group of people for your class. </p>

<p>There is no prejudice towards ED admits at Vandy or at any peer colleges nor are the reasons for doing ED the same from person to person.</p>

<p>Transfer admits are often particularly cool people. It might be a bit tougher socially in the hunt for a good room mate or the Greek thing if you transfer in, but if you tend to join a couple of programs and initiate socially, transfers are happy at Vandy. One of my son’s housemates is a transfer and she is wonderful. Many great kids start at College Y and realize by the end of first semester that the college doesn’t feel right or doesn’t have a specialization in their chosen area or something. Transfers are not looked down on at all. Vanderbilt is a complex diverse community with four sub schools. Kids who transfer (not only at Vandy) tend to be very resilient people who have courage of their convictions and generate respect for their ability to change directions in midstream. These qualities generally also help them create meaningful friendships and help them find places to set up and live. There are some buildings with singles at Vanderbilt and there are times in your life when that is a plus.</p>

<p>Great thread! Lots of interesting feedback about the Vandy experience! So glad you all shared your perspectives.</p>

<p>Now I’m seriously reconsidering Vandy. It was probably my number 2 (but it was moving up) but now I don’t know if I even want to go anymore. I’d be going for pre-med (I’ve wanted to be a doctor since I was 7, my uncle let me watch a surgery) and I’m not one of those kids that drops out so now I’m thinking I might fail my pre-med classes because they’re so hard. I’m not extraordinarily intelligent, I’d say I’m above average (in a high-school sense) but nothing super-dooper (I got a 2010 on my SAT, that’s about me). Do medical schools (especially Vandy Med) factor in that the classes are fantastically difficult? If not I think Vandy might be off my list.</p>

<p>A good portion, but not all, of economics major stink at math. If you’re good at math (i.e. bare minimum excellent Calculus skills), intermediate microeconomics (231) is a joke. For instance, I took 231 with Professor Wen and went through the second midterm at least 4 times in the allotted time. You should challenge yourself with the more rigorous (and potentially worthwhile) math based economics courses like Econometrics (253, 284) or Game Theory (273). </p>

<p>That being said, there is not an insignificant no. of students who are actually good at math; of these, many end being Math-Econ double majors, which is great for graduate school or banking.</p>

<p>Vandy certainly wasn’t my #1 while applying but given my acceptances and FA offers, Vandy is at the top of my list. I had my reservations but this post is really reassuring. Thanks alot!</p>

<p>Edit: Just noticed this is a year old because someone else bumped it up… Oh well, it’s informative and useful nonetheless.</p>

<p>Loved this thread so much. Definitely feel more confident about Vandy. Just sent in my app and test scores!</p>

<p>What I don’t understand is who are all the stereotypical Vandy types - - I’m talking about the rich Greek kids? And how do they get in? I can’t imagine they all have straight A’s and 34’s on their ACT’s…</p>

<p>Interesting to re-read this old thread.</p>

<p>Living61, you might want to post your own thread asking your question. My question for you is, what makes you think that rich Greek kids are unlikely to have straight As and ACT scores of 34? Certainly they don’t “all” have those accomplishments - some may have lower scores, and some certainly have higher ones. You seem to be assigning some stereotypes yourself.</p>

<p>If you read the Vanderbilt Greek Life, you’ll see that students in Greek Life continue to perform well at Vanderbilt: <a href=“http://www.vanderbilt.edu/greek_life/wp-content/uploads/Spring-13-Grade-Report-Final2.pdf[/url]”>http://www.vanderbilt.edu/greek_life/wp-content/uploads/Spring-13-Grade-Report-Final2.pdf&lt;/a&gt; The average GPA for students in Greek Life has consistently been higher than the overall student GPA for many years.</p>

<p>Living61: Many of them will. They are indeed very statistically smart (Greeks at elite schools). They just want the extra experience of being in the fraternity. They enjoy that sort of scene. At many places, Greeks (as frazzled pointed out) outperform the general student body (okay, mainly sororities. But then again, I think women often earn higher average GPAs than males at many colleges). There could be various reasons for it, but it is a real phenomenon. This is the case at many schools. It could partially be due to distribution of majors however. I know a lot of the b-school kids at Emory are in them. The B-school gives higher grades than much of CAS. But at the same time, there are many “good” pre-meds in Greek life (when I say “good”, I mean “has high gpa because they were smart and chose the easier instructors within the pre-med core” and likely chose easier auxillary pre-med courses as well. Regardless, they’re good because pre-meds are technically supposed to try to take easier paths when they can anyway by virtue of the way the admissions process works). Greeklife could offer some advantages as well. For example, it is easier to have a legit study group if you are involved in it. If you are independent at schools with a large greek presence, and you are in a course with a strict grading curve (like organic, which at many tougher grading elites has 50-70 exam averages and is curved to mid C+ to high B-), you’ll have a hard time finding others to help or study with you especially if your friends ditched you for another instructor. Many in greeklife will take the same profs. if they are on the same track and essentially lift each other up instead of competing. </p>

<p>Also, whoever above that basically said that “college students at places like Vandy are too realistic to be intellectual in the traditional sense as we know that we mainly want a high paying job”. This gets so old (many people keep saying that) seriously. Almost all students at Yale, Harvard, Princeton, and the scores of other elites that would be considered somewhat intellectual want the same thing. They just don’t believe that having a good time, working hard to get good grades to get to an awesome next step, and creating a rich scene of intellectual life/curiousity simultaneously is impossible. They probably don’t think that the latter is separate from the other two. Perhaps these other campuses also draw more “nerdy” and “quirky” types as well. If one doesn’t like that sort of student body or atmosphere, that’s fine, but don’t suggest that it is anti to wanting and achieving solid status after graduating. Engineering heavy schools are known for these sorts of atmospheres and are indeed pre-professional by nature. I mean, simply say that students at the school are less focused on a high level of engagement in book driven academics or what goes on in the classroom beyond assignments, but are primarily focused on getting extracurricular experiences and learning that way. Some schools are like this. It is a rational alternative to trying to achieve a complete balance of both.</p>

<p>Living61…there is a strong correlation between family income and test scores. <a href=“SAT Scores and Family Income - The New York Times”>SAT Scores and Family Income - The New York Times. The average RD admit was ranked 3.3 in their class and had an ACT of 33-35 I believe. Most kids at Vandy had straight A’s (or nearly) and top test scores…not just the “rich Greek kids.” </p>

<p>As for the intellectual environment, I asked my son about that because he is one that loves to learn and have philosophical/political discussions. He said he’s not been deprived of that at all. He said he’s so glad he chose a school that strikes such a great balance between work and play.</p>

<p>MommyDearest: I think they tried to suggest that the Greeks are expected to be of lower caliber (and that maybe they only got in because they could pay. But as you say, they are kind of more likely to have higher scores if they are indeed able to pay). This is a rather strange misconception.</p>

<p>As for the intellectual thing. I’m sure everyone can find their niche. Anyone “deprived” of such a thing at a top school is probably not looking in the right places. Also, people should be careful not to confuse more intellectual environments as schools with a higher ratio on the “work” side or as lacking balance. Usually “intellectual” conversations and events are actually random and are not tied to any class that the participating parties are taking. In fact often, it is part of the “play” or leisure side in some cases. An example of how this or association doesn’t always hold is how Brown, which is not known to be overly intense (no core, relaxed grading standards, especially when compared to southern elites) for an elite has a vibrant intellectual environment. Not everyone identifies “play” as the same sort of thing. Depending on the school, it may include the traditional party or sports scene plus other random things that may be “intellectual” in nature (or the two could be strangely mixed).</p>

<p>The Greek community actually has a consistently higher GPA than the independent community. Someone just posted a link with the data.</p>

<p>Everyone is admitted on the same criteria. Then some go Greek, and some don’t. They aren’t particularly different academically or financially. The academic standards enforced by fraternities and sororities may explain the higher GPA-- plus you gain access to a large network of upperclassmen who have taken your classes before.</p>

<p>The term “intellectual” seems to have been hijacked by universities that have little to offer students outside of academics. They appease their students by telling them there’s not much to do here but we are more intellectual than those other schools where the students have fun. The truth is you can go to a party or a football game and still be intellectual.<br>
At some point in the near future everyone needs to find a job and grades matter for pre-professional students.</p>

<p>As for well funded students, all top 20 private universities are overrepresented with them and have similar percentages of them. The economics of higher education are what they are. No well funded students=poor financial aid. No well funded students means a school can’t be needs blind.</p>

<p>Silly runtime, Kissam already HAS been torn down and is practically rebuilt!
[Kissam</a> College Hall - Webcam, Construction | Vanderbilt University | Nashville, Tennessee](<a href=“http://webcams.vanderbilt.edu/kissam/]Kissam”>Warren & Moore Colleges | Webcams | Vanderbilt University)</p>

<p>I probably shouldn’t have used the word Greek. But I did mean that affluent preppy stereotypical Vandy kid. Perhaps the NYTimes article nailed it when they pointed out the correlation between the rich and the test scores their money can buy.</p>

<p>Bud: I don’t know which universities those would be though. Even those without D-1 for example, offer students a crap ton to do outside of academics. This is especially the case for research-1 institutions (definitely the ones in or near fairly large cities). That idea would likely apply more to liberal arts colleges (many that are located kind of in the middle of nowhere). Also, again, the thing about pre-professionalism and grades/jobs fails to explain differences in atmospheres. Harvard, Yale, and Princeton (and many of the other Ivies) are full of pre-professionals that are very concerned about grades and jobs (IB anyone), also have a lot to offer students outside of academics (including D-1), and yet are known to have a high level of intellectual vitality. I think a place like Rice is viewed similarly. An exception would be Chicago which does indeed have an added level of academic intensity/academically focused student body (despite having a lot pre-profs). I think a lot of it has to do with how universities are structured. Housing system structures can play a role along with how many undergrad subunits a school has (particularly, are they pre-prof. in nature or not. Are very large amounts of students in the subunits or are an overwhelming majority in the so called “arts and sciences”, aka, the liberal arts subunit). The intellectual vitality differences I think are real things. And once you start considering elites, the reputations for this don’t seem to correlate w/incoming stats (the incoming stats. of most top 20s has essentially converged, yet the differences in atmospheres still remains. Obviously, to a certain point it doesn’t matter. One student w/a 4.0 and a 1500 may prefer Harvard and the other Duke or something, assuming each gets into both. Unless the school intervenes, the school retains the same atmosphere even as stats. increase) and “what’s offered outside of academics” more so than atmosphere that the school has historically hosted (though one could argue that strategic initiatives or differences in recruiting do indeed cause some schools to change some. So patterns need not persist). </p>

<p>It may also depend on which departments are strong, hold the most on-campus events (like speaking events and things of that nature), and do the best encouraging undergrads to participate (even if incentivized it can make a difference) in these functions. Some places may have a very strong math or physics scene (literally, some places like Ann Arbor, Berkeley, and some Ivies are known to have these random events like “integration competitions”. Some of these schools also have very strong UG physics societies). Some may have very strong social science or even literary scenes that UGs have become heavily involved in. There are numerous ways for schools to foster this in formal settings that likely have a lasting influence that spills outside into informal settings. It all depends…I wouldn’t say that most schools use it as a compensatory gimic. Some places historically just have it regardless of what else they offer. Students at top 20s love a good time, good grades and good jobs so that doesn’t explain it. “Intellectual engagement” happens in varying degrees at each school. At many, students find that it goes nicely with the other 3 things and could perhaps even drive or inspire success in such areas.</p>

<p>There’s a lot of nonsense talked about correlation between family wealth & academic success. Bad inferences from statistics, cavorting as serious social commentary. You could just as easily suggest that genes are to blame: genetically well-endowed people become more successful, and their children follow the successful track because of inherited talent, not wealth. (I don’t know the answers; NO ONE DOES! The point is, there’s been very little credible analysis of this sort of thing.)</p>

<p>As for the comment “the rich and the test scores their money can buy”. How does one buy good test scores? Test prep classes? Give me a break. You can get the same kind of score uplift by training using prep books that just about anyone can afford.</p>

<p>Yes, one can argue that “wealth” does afford richer experiences, as well as access to connections and opportunities. So it’s not nothing. But it doesn’t get you automatic “go to elite school” admission tickets.</p>

<p>It’s not auto-elite, it’s kind of like “more likely to go to one”, assuming the child works hard and isn’t spoiled into being lazy. Also, academic preparation can help. The wealthier student could attend a better school (private or an awesome charter or public school) that ends up helping in the long run. The wealth doesn’t explain it all, but it probably has a partial role.</p>