There are Uber wealthy folks (pick a net worth, let’s say 5 mil and up although some would place it far higher) in almost every single neighborhood in the five boroughs. Restored brownstones and nice restaurants are helpful but not sufficient to make a neighborhood desirable. 9k is on the way upper end for bed stuy, I’m sure you can find something affordable. If you need help please PM me.
Almost nobody commutes from the Hamptons to Manhattan. Most houses are vacation homes with the remainder being year round residents who are either retired or who help service the towns in the summer months. They work in hospitality, landscaping, construction, cooking etc. I used to summer there but now rent my house out most summers.
Interesting discussion. I see a theme similar to other threads in this category: “go to a top 13 school or just forget it – or, go into some high-level biz job instead (even better).”
I’ve been talking to a number of folks in the legal field (in a different geo area) recently. They are of mixed ages, and they hold a wide variety of jobs - public sector, start-ups, teaching, politics, non-profit. They are all vibrant, engaged, and making a good living. Is it the $250k of a “big law” associate or the multi-millions of a partner? No. But they are living well, engaged in issues and their careers, and I know that many of them have pivoted from straight litigation into other areas. The law degree allowed them to do this.
I don’t discount in any way the perspectives shared on these law school threads re: the downsides. And I’m definitely glad to hear them, for a full picture. I’m just cautioning that one’s personal experience (and one’s circle of professional acquaintances) is not the whole profession.
I don’t think any of us believe our own observations represent the entire profession. I don’t post about a relative of mine who is a career public defender (and who loves the work). Her lifestyle is possible due to an inheritance on her spouse’s side.
Is that helpful advice? Go to law school, get a job which pays $50K per year (with modest, inflation adjusted increases) and make sure you marry well?
Of course there are lawyers who love their work and don’t have to worry about money! The advice here is intended for the majority of “maybe I want to go to law school” students who will likely need to support themselves. And in some parts of the country is possible, and in others- ???
blossom - comments like the above are giving me the sense that posters strongly recommend other fields (than law) based upon personal experience. Not discounting that experience whatsoever, just trying to have a balanced picture. And I’ll add that I know plenty of families on single incomes (some women friends) who make a nice living outside of “big law” - working for the gov’t, public interest law. Meaning - own their own home, kid in private school, nice vacations. Plus do challenging, intellectually engaging work that is rewarding and makes a difference. No inheritences and not such a bad deal, it seems to me.
No one maximizes their income by entering law. Working by the hour, whether it is as a day laborer or in a white collar “profession” with the billable hour as the main pricing mechanism, is not a way to make a good living given one’s skill set. Getting equity, either through entrepreneurship or being in high finance with IPO set asides or being a management exec with stock options, is the way to make money in America in 2021. There is no shortage of lawyers in their 80s, and it is not because they can’t get enough of law.
This is survivorship bias in a nutshell. When I was in corporate law as an equity partner (making less than what I do now as an entrepreneur, and doing less interesting work) I would go to bar sponsored events for people at a similar seniority level. For everyone of us there were 50-75 “failed” associates and non equity partners chasing the dream we had. Behind every one of those 50-75 (depending on firm structure) there were 9 law graduates who could not get big law. Of all JD graduates in a given year, between 40-50% will not become attorneys, depending on the state of the economy. That lucky 50-60% that enters will be shrunken to about 30-40% within four years. Most big law litigators struggle to move in house because those jobs are dying with large companies moving to arbitration. The majority, who never had a real career in law whether corporate or interesting public interest work, are ghosts. You won’t see them at bar events, reunions, many of them are
Embarrassed by washing out of the profession. They’re not on this website. They are on forums dedicated to failed attorneys (there’s tons of them) or they hide the fact they went to law school with as much energy as needed to make a career pivot.
Assuming you have no debt, a tenured public school teacher in a northeastern city will make more than the average attorney according to Dept Labor statistics. With debt, the picture is more grim. Anyone on college confidential can get a full ride at a non flagship state school of some sort, get a cheap masters at a commuter college while teaching the first year, and lock-in a pension, gold plated insurance, and total job security.
Attorneys tend to have strong opinions & often present positions in a strong manner. That should be accepted in a thread devoted to law school & the practice of law.
I have said, in many places on this website on threads you contributed to, that there are many avenues providing more fulfilling, more interesting, and similarly non remunerative work that are easier to obtain than law. Public interest, prosecution, and government work that isn’t in rural NM or western NE (some of the most under served spots legally) are some of the hardest to obtain jobs. At top schools big law is way easier to get.
Lets all be friends. I tend to appreciate various viewpoints derived from others’ experience.
If we want input from attorneys who have practiced as litigators / trial attorneys, we have to expect that thoughts will be presented in a forceful fashion.
I realize that on CC, like Lake Woebegone, everyone is above average. From my perspective, the biggest issue isn’t the grind of biglaw-it’s the average kid who takes out over $200k in loans for a lesser-ranked law school and is either unemployed, or employed in a job that pays 60k/year, which makes it essentially impossible to live independently. An example-GULC which isn’t “T13” but considered a “name” school; for the class of 2020, of 691 graduates 570 were in JD required jobs. Others are listed as employed, but that assumes anyone goes to law school to be anything but a lawyer.
At some law schools, the employment rate is truly appalling, and that’s after the law schools game the numbers. So while biglaw may be a grind, there are hundreds of new and experienced lawyers who scramble to find a job that pays the bills and the hefty student loans.
You correctly identified two issues. You are correct that the largest issue is that almost two times as many people obtain a JD each year than there are entry-level legal jobs available. At this point they are considered overqualified to be legal assistants or paralegals. Almost all of these non big law folk will make 30-60k if they even land a legal job, which is not enough to justify debt paying half tuition, let alone Cooley’s sticker price. 150 of the 200 American law schools can (and should) close tomorrow and it would take a decade for the oversaturated market to balance out. Law schools are essentially given free license to lie and inflate their numbers in myriad ways. The lawsuits alleging fraud do not go far. Infilaw brilliantly made tens of millions by taking federal loan money, leaving its alumni’s lives ruined.
The more minor issue, which I discuss here given the CC audience, is that law does not develop skills or human potential fully in any of the subfields T13 grads consider. If you can cut it in law, do something else. Your mind will be exercised and stretched more. Your creativity will be tapped. You will have a more fulfilling career.
Regarding GULC, it has not been strong for a long time. There are too many students in the most competitive legal market in the country, DC. Almost every law student, except partially at Yale, wants a position in law. GULC cannot provide that for a large fraction of its students.
So if my kid (a HS junior) is still dreaming at the end of undergrad about going into some form of social justice law - whether it be public defender work or labor law or enviro or civil rights – how best should I steer him? No debt seems impossible. But heading to a top law school doesn’t seem particularly crucial either, is that right? Or should I try to steer him away completely?
If it is impossible to steer your child out of law school (and it usually is possible with enough persistence; help him or her explore other options during every undergrad summer, have family friends explain the realities of what they do day to day), the best option is to go to the best law school at the lowest price. With a high enough gpa and lsat, all but the top three or so schools can become full rides. The undergrad brand doesn’t matter if you have a 4.0 in something, Harvard physics with a 3.0 is worse than no name bumble weed state U with a 4.0 in sociology or X Studies from an admissions perspective. Make your child do lsat prep sophomore year, lock-in a great score junior or senior year when they have the free time to get a 180. If they cannot hack it by then, take a year or two to work post undergrad. There is no need to rush law school if they can still obtain that top score for the full ride at UVA NYU Penn etc. A T13 is imperative for those positions, they have only gotten more competitive since 08 although plenty in my age bracket went to fourth tier law schools and wound up okay because it was a wholly different profession.
As a HS junior, it’s ok to have a broad view of future careers, so I don’t think there’s a need to talk him into or out of anything, including going to law school.
But it is a good time to develop a realistic view of what people actually do in their jobs, whether it be lawyer or engineer or school teacher, and what education is required for that job.
And it’s also a good time to talk finances-what will college cost? What debt will there be from college? And regarding law school, any law school, as it’s 5-6 years in the future, it’s going to cost even more than it does now. Will job prospects for new lawyers be better then? No way to tell, but the trend the past several years hasn’t been good.
At this point, I’d encourage him to explore his options while recognizing that everything is results(e.g. good grades) driven. Top law schools produce better employment results, and in the end that’s the whole point of attending law school-to get a job as a lawyer.