ABET and its importance

College Majors Engineering Majors
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<p>ABET (abet.org) is a national accredidation standard for college majors in engineering and the sciences. </p>

<p>My question is how vital is that a student seek out a prgram that is ABET accredited? My top choice college, UCSD, is out of the question due to financial reasons, and because i knew that their BioE program was accredited, i decided to seek out other programs that are accredited.</p>

<p>It turns out that my state university (Rutgers) is accredited in Bioresource engineering. Would it be wise of me to double major in Biomed and Bioresource so i can show a grad school (preferably UC Berkeley) that I have some form of accredidation.</p>

<p>Also, drexels Biomed program is accredited? But i dont know if I really want to go to Drexel.</p>

<p>Any input would be helpful...</p>

2

<p>Well, most jobs and grad schools will not accept applicants from non-accredited schools/programs, so it's very important that you go to an ABET-accredited school.</p>

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<p>I don't think ABET accreditation is that crucial - especially in the Bio field where it is not as widespread as the older disciplines. I wouldn't worry much about it in the Bio field. Overall it is an important thing to look at, but generally not critical. If you plan on getting a P.E. license you need to graduate from an ABET accredited school but generally only Civil engineers really need the P.E. license.</p>

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<p>An aside: Must all civil engineers get their PE to work? Is it a valuable credential in other engineering disciplines?</p>

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<p>In order for Civil engineers to sign off on government work (which is a big part of their work) they must be a PE. It is not typically valuable in other engineering disciplines.</p>

6

<p>
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Well, most jobs and grad schools will not accept applicants from non-accredited schools/programs, so it's very important that you go to an ABET-accredited school.

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<p>No way. What others have said here is pretty accurate - ABET accreditation is only useful in certain disciplines like CivilE and maybe to a slight extent ME and ChemE. I have personally never seen anybody care about ABET status in EE or Computer Science/CompE, which are the 2 most populous engineering disciplines. Large EE and Computer companies like Microsoft, Intel, Cisco, HP, Apple, Dell, IBM - these companies couldn't give two hoots about ABET accreditation. They care about whether you have good skills, not about whether you have accreditation. </p>

<p>This is why, incidentally, they hire a good number of science and math graduates. One of the better 'engineers' I know at Intel actually doesn't have an engineering degree at all. Instead, she has a BS and MS in Chemistry. Some of the best software and computer 'engineers' I know don't have engineering degrees, but rather, degrees in mathematics. </p>

<p>Nor am I sure about the assertion that most engineering grad schools will not accept applicants from non-accredited programs. I can name quite a few doctoral students in several engineering departments at MIT who don't have accredited bachelor's degrees in engineering. Instead, they have degrees in math or physics. This is particularly true of highly theoretical branches of engineering which are not very different from a math or physics doctoral program. I'm fairly certain that im_blue can name some students in the Stanford EE department that hold undergrad degrees in things like physics or math. </p>

<p>Nor do all schools, not even the top ones, even offer accredited programs in all cases. For example, Materials Science at both Stanford and Berkeley are not accredited. But it is accredited at Michigan Tech (no, not Michigan State, but Michigan Tech). Yet, honestly, where would you rather go to study Materials Science - at Stanford or Berkeley, or at Michigan Tech? Berkeley is not accredited in BioE. But the University of Toledo is. But would you really turn down Berkeley for Toledo, unless money was a problem? </p>

<p>I think what that really shows is that accreditation simply isn't very important for those kinds of newer engineering disciplines. I have never heard of any employer ever actually caring about accreditation when it comes to fields like Materials Science or BioE.</p>

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<p>ABET accreditation will only be useful if you go to a relatively unknown engineering school. If you go to a top 50 engineering school it will be assumed that your degree will be up to the quality expected with an ABET accrediation, even without the accrediation. No one is going to reject an MIT degree even if it is from a department that doesnt have an ABET accrediation. However, employers and grad schools might want to see an ABET accrediation if you went to a school they never heard of, or that might not have a strong engineering reputation. </p>

<p>It's kind of similar to ISO and other certifications that companies can achieve. If you are an industry leader, it will be expected that you either have ISO certification or have similar processes in place. However, if you are a small to medium sized company and you wish to either do gov't business or want to get larger clients, then getting ISO certification will show that you meet a certain minimum standard for quality assurance.</p>

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<p>Well, I suppose that makes the most sense, sky.</p>

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<p>Thanks for all your input... This actually has been really helpful since I am BioE... </p>

<p>When you think about it, in the long run when u apply for a job your going to be communitcating with real people. I dont think they will turn someone down jsut because they're not ABET accredited... I mean if you show them that you work hard and are ready, I'm sure you can make it anywhere...</p>

<p>Thanks for the input again...</p>

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<p>Some companies do require (or may strongly prefer) ABET accredidation.
I interned with Lockheed and "must be currently enrolled in or graduated from an abet accredited program" was actually on the employment forms. A similar thing was on the hiring applications for GE. A lot of the engineering managers (guys who sign off on the engineering work done at these companies) are PE's. ABET accredidation is important in BME if you plan to be a consultant. I had an instructor (who got her B.S. from the University of Miami which as accredited BME programs) who ran a quality engineering and validation firm catering to biomed companies (specifically J&J, Beckman Coulter, Guidant). To be able to legally put engineer in her business name, she had to become a PE. To do this, she had to have graduated from an ABET accredited program (only way to sit for FE without extra work experience). Also, if you ever plan on becoming an engineering lead at any company (biomeds included), you'll probably need a PE becuase you're going to have to sign off on certain things.</p>

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<p>I'd also like to add that I do feel accredidation is important for having some type of skillset standardization or yardstick. I remeber interviewing with a guy from a top 20 school that touts a very "flexible and innovative" curriculum. At this interview, we were given a quiz to test our basic knowledge. The other guy was obviously very bright and accomplished, but he couldn't answer an intermediate level dynamics question. Part of the problem (in my estimation) was that he said he had taken some kind of "integrated" non-traditional dynamics course using simulation software and a different approach to teaching the subject. What real good is innovation and a top 20 engineering degree if it doesn't provide you with a strong enough background in the fundamentals (meaning if you took the FE exam you'd fail it).</p>

12

<p>
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Also, if you ever plan on becoming an engineering lead at any company (biomeds included), you'll probably need a PE becuase you're going to have to sign off on certain things.

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<p>Nah, that's too strong. Most companies are fully covered for this sort of thing, in that, in worst case scenario, they will hire a consulting company that does have PE's to sign off on their engineering work.</p>

<p>Take some of the largest engineering companies like Intel, Cisco, Hewlett Packard, IBM, and the like. I have never heard of anybody caring about engineering managers there ever having to sign off on anything from a PE standpoint. Heck, a lot of the "engineering managers" at those companies don't even have engineering degrees at all. For example, I know quite a few engineering managers at Intel whose degrees are in physics or chemistry, not in engineering.</p>

<p>Or take the biotechs or the biomedical companies. The truth is, because of the newness of the Bioengineering field, you are actually far more likely to find a guy with a degree in biology or chemistry (especially a PhD) in an "engineering" management role than you would find a guy with a bioengineering degree. </p>

<p>I agree that there are companies that do a lot of work with the government that may require accreditation. Defense contractors like Lockheed definitely come to mind. Yet the fact is, there are always ways to get around these requirements, if they want you. That is why defense contractors scoop up plenty of the best physics and math graduates from schools like MIT.</p>

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<p>
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What real good is innovation and a top 20 engineering degree if it doesn't provide you with a strong enough background in the fundamentals (meaning if you took the FE exam you'd fail it).

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<p>Well, in the defense of that school, I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that lots of engineering students are interested in cutting-edge high tech R&D style work, which is often times best taught in a boutique setting (hence, is excellent preparation for you to get a PhD in that field). The guys who are in these programs aren't really interested in becoming regular engineers, rather they want to pursue some highly specialized theoretical research. </p>

<p>Secondly, as I have pointed out several times, lots of engineering students have no intention of ever working as engineers at all, not even in a high-tech R&D theory role. Rather, they actually intend to get into management consulting or banking, and they just want an engineering degree as a backup career if they really need it. I suspect that this is precisely what lots of Harvard and Yale engineering students intend. Heck, even at the juggernaut engineering schools like MIT and Stanford, plenty of engineering students head off to consulting and banking.</p>

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<p>Currently, there are exactly zero states that license biomedical engineers. Same goes for materials scientists or computer scientists. Since the licensure issue is moot in these fields, there is no particular advantage to ABET accreditation. And so many top-ranked programs in these fields are not ABET accredited.</p>

<p>The situation is different in traditional engineering fields like mechanical, electrical, chemical, and especially civil. All states license engineers in these disciplines, and all states legally require or prefer ABET degrees for licensure (check your state law). So in these fields, ABET accreditation has real legal significance, and all legitimate programs have it (with the exception of brand new programs which are still in the candidate phase).</p>

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<p>I agree that ABET accreditation is useful (and in many cases necessary) to work for the government (either Fed or state). </p>

<p>Yet the fact is, the vast majority of engineers do not work for the government. Rather, they work for private industry. And private industry does not really care about accreditation. For example, I suspect that IBM alone employs more engineers than most state governments do. IBM doesn't really care about accreditation.</p>

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<p>
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Yet the fact is, the vast majority of engineers do not work for the government. Rather, they work for private industry. And private industry does not really care about accreditation.

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This is a bit misleading. Any employer that cares about licensing will also care about accreditation. And most licensed engineers are employed in the private sector, not by government. </p>

<p>It’s true that many private-sector engineers are not affected by licensing or accreditation issues, because state engineering laws typically include an "industrial exemption" for the design and manufacture of mass-produced products. However, a significant fraction of private-sector engineers work as consultants, developing customized, "one-of-a-kind" solutions for clients. The classic examples are civil-related disciplines, though some mechanical and electrical engineers qualify as well. </p>

<p>IBM may not care about accreditation or licensing, but Bechtel does.</p>

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<p>
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It’s true that many private-sector engineers are not affected by licensing or accreditation issues

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<p>Actually, I would say that this is a bit misleading. It's not just 'many' private-sector employers. I would actually characterize it as 'almost all', and certainly almost all of the famous, publicly-traded companies that hire engineers. For example, ExxonMobil, Intel, Microsoft, HP, Cisco, Dell, Sun, Oracle, Toyota, General Motors, Sony, Samsung, Apple, Ford, Chevron - all of these companies care very little about accreditation.</p>

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<p>When I was an engineer I worked for a large, private consulting engineering design firm. (Not Bechtel though).</p>

<p>The PE was a critically important designation for advancement at that firm. Engineers in all the major disciplines, not just civil, but mechanical and definitely including electrical as well, needed to be a PE to become a Project Engineer; ie to advance within the company.</p>

<p>Virtually every engineer in the mid levels of that company on up had a PE. And this firm, and its competitors, hired a lot of engineers.</p>

<p>I have no insight about what any other firm requires.
However what Corbett posted above makes a lot of sense to me. Mass production exemption, or whatever.</p>

<p>So I guess it depends on what kind of firm/ business you ultimately end up in. Which is pretty difficult to forecast with precision at this juncture, for most college applicants anyway.</p>

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<p>I'm my engineering work experience the PE was never an issue - almost no one had it. But in consulting like what monydad is talking about, I could see it being important. Like Sakky said, most companies don't care a whole lot about it.</p>

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<p>Do people study to take the PE? Is it best (or even possible) for a new graduate to pass the exam?</p>