SAT scores mean very little. There are a lot of very smart kids who don’t have stellar test scores. My daughter attended a large college where her scores were in the bottom quartile. After she was there about a month I asked if she was finding it hard to compete with the other students and she said she was pretty sure she was in the top one-third academically, and that she was amazed at how many students there were with super high test scores who just weren’t all that smart. Perhaps an artifact of the test-prep industry, and the wide gulf between a multiple choice test and college exam and writing expectations. (My DD ended up graduating summa cum laude, which at her school meant essentially top 5% GPA – so she proved to be correct in her assessment. Turns out that self-discipline and drive are the most important factors, and there aren’t any tests to measure that. )
Anyway, depending on the college, your son may go off to school and be quite surprised at to find that he is not at the intellectual advantage over other students that he expected.
However, the bigger problem I see in the plan is “small” LAC. Does this school have adequate resources if your son decides to change focus or majors? What about that desired major and uncommon minor he likes? Who teaches those courses, and how many professors are there? If a professor goes on sabattical your son’s junior or senior year, is that going to throw everything off track? or if it turns out that he is not fond of a particular professor, will there be the ability to complete the major with different classes?
My son, who had very high test scores, did attend a small LAC – and ran into problems, but not because of the caliber of the other students. It was a combination of lacking the discipline his sister had, and also the small part. Too small coupled with the schools’ commitment to small discussion size classes meant that it was often difficult getting desired classes-- either the course wasn’t offered that semester or it was full up and he had to settle for something else to fill his schedule. Ultimately the college wasn’t able to meet his needs as he matured and his interests evolved.
So have your son visit and sit in on classes in his desired major. Count up the number of faculty in departments of interest; look at a current course schedule to get a sense of how many classes are actually offered each semester; and learn what you can about the faculty. It’s not the other students and their test scores that matter; it is the resources the college has to offer.
Some small LAC’s are fine, and some have consortium or cross-registration agreement with nearby colleges that allow them to provide greater resources to their students --so it is something you have to specifically research, not a generalization that applies to all LAC’s.
My daughter is a history major. Her test scores would put her in the middle or toward the bottom of the school, but her reading/English were very high and her math and science were low. I think she’d be an intellectual equal to OP’s son as long as the discussion didn’t drift into math. She loves to talk about history, art history, religion, why a religious painting is important or why too much importance is placed on the art or artist. She likes to write about the book. The only think she doesn’t want to do is count, multiple, or divide the books, paintings, or museums.
I’m sure there are people at her school who think discussing those things is stupid when there are math concepts to conquer or sciencey things to to calculate and dissect in a lab.
I’m sure if the OP’s son finds the courses interesting that there will be other people in those courses to make discussions interesting. Not everyone with lower test scores is an idiot. I have another daughter who had much higher test scores and honestly, she’s not interested in having a discussion at all and she’d not contribute to a good discussion in a history class. She took humanities classes because they made her, not because she had any interest in them at all. She was smart enough to know she’d hate an LAC because there was entirely too much discussion going on.
Not everyone who doesn’t have a high GPA is an idiot either. Some kids don’t really find HS to their liking or really don’t care about grades too much but find the structure and course choices in college much more appealing.
I think there are lots of assumptions on CC about what majors “smart” kids choose and which majors are for slackers or less intellectual students.
I’d also add that because students can be lopsided in either direction, better in test scores or GPA, but not both, there are likely more kids in that top 25% percent in a given school’s reported GPA/tests scores than 25%.
^^^
Yes, did not want to imply or suggest anyone was an idiot!
I liked your point about lopsided kids too. My kid is lopsided in his own way! And I certainly know that pretty much everyone has a major transition from HS work (no matter how good or advanced) to college work, so would not want to assume anything as far as him transitioning at a “higher level” than any other student either.
I also know that many many people bloom in college and you can’t entirely predict that from cold hard HS stats.
Checking the on-line class schedule to see if it shows capacity and actual enrollment in various classes can give some idea of how much of a problem this may be.
Both my kids attend/ed small LACs. Neither had any issue at all getting into classes despite small class size. I’m sure it can vary from school to school, so worth checking out, but I’ve actually heard a lot more students at large universities expressing issues with getting into desired classes than at small schools.
Great timing on this thread. My son is currently a senior and will be making a decision in the upcoming months. His top three choices include a smaller University with an Honors program, and two LAC’s of which one has an Honors Program. Two of the three choices he would be in the top 10-15% and the other top 25-30%. Two schools have acceptance rates at or over 50%. Previously I downloaded stats on test scores, gpa, top 10%, and researched much more. I had the same questions as the OP.
In the end we are leaving the decision up to him (already met the general affordability test, he will know his portion after final merit/scholarship info is known). He believes everyone has something to offer, doesn’t matter the gpa or test score (we agree). We have given him some questions to think about and offered non-specific advice about finding his group. We’ve asked him to think about professors and the type of learning he will receive at all schools. He plans to attend Admitted Student Days and go to a few classes and/or overnights in the next 60 days to help make his decision.
To the OP, folks have offered some great advice. I would add to discuss some of this with your child. How does he/she learn and grow both academically and socially? What type of personality traits would they look for in friends/peers? How would they find this in potential schools? We found discussing with our son helped him to think about where he wants to spend the next four years. One last note, we have also told him there isn’t one right decision. We will support his decision and hope it will work out. If it doesn’t, we have told him we will support him in the next steps. This has taken a lot of pressure off. He has relaxed and appears to be managing these next steps of the process with maturity.
Best of luck to you and your child. It looks like he is a junior…enjoy the ride as the next year will fly!
It depends on both the student and the school. Some students thrive as the big fish, others some get pushed to new heights when surrounding by amazing people… Some get bored and/or develop bad habits if they aren’t challenged well, others get stressed and/or drop majors if they are not at the top of their class. Some colleges offer special honors type programs or advanced/accelerated courses that that may allow more academically similar peers than would be suggested by GPA/SAT/rank… type stats across the full college. Specific majors/colleges can have a similar differences from the full college. There are too many variables to make a simple generalization.
This type of strategy can backfire because the grad schools you mentioned emphasize GPA, rather than being at the top of the class. Colleges with a larger portion of exceptional students tend to give a larger portion of top grades. For example, most classes at HYPSM type colleges have a median grade of A- or A. Yale gives special honors for being in the top 30% of the class. The current cut-off for top 30% at Yale is a 3.81 GPA. The distribution suggests a median grade near 3.7, which is similar to average GPA reported at other similarly selective, private colleges. However, not quite as selective privates often have average GPAs under 3.5. It’s common for not as selective publics to have average GPAs near 3.0 or lower.
My kid is in the top 3 in his high school. Last year due to scheduling issues he had to take an honors class for history rather than AP or GT and he was miserable. He ends up carrying the weight of most group projects. He wants to go to a place where he’s in the median, academics-wise, rather than at the tippy top. He is tired of being the smartest kid in the room and wants more intellectual equals.
@Data10 I’m not sure how anyone is really at the top of their class unless they have a high GPA. HYPSM would not be a good example of colleges that most kids could get into including mine. It’s not a great comparison. MY DS has the Stats for GTown, but he chose to apply ED to American where he was in the top of the pool. I’m not advocating that if you have the stats for an HYPSM that you should go to some regional or community college. One of our friends went to a state flagship where he was well above their entering stats. He was the top (GPA) of his class and had a great LSAT score which earned him a full ride to WUSTL and attended GTown on a partial scholarship. There is a strategy to not going to the best school you can get into for undergrad if you are planning on going to a selective program after undergrad. Being in the top percentage of the admittance pool gives certain advantages. For many full pay parents, merit at private and OOS schools does play a part and schools don’t tend to give merit to people who are in the middle/bottom of their admit pool. So there are very valid reasons for going to a school where you are at the top.
It also depends on what schools are being compared. Clearly, schools ranked in the top 100 or so are going to have a range of students with some excellent ones, especially those that give out merit awards. A kid with the stats for GT is still going to have academic peers at American. But if that student picks a very small college far from a city that has a 75% admit rate, he may not find students that are passionate about learning. Sounds like the OP’s son has found a good fit.
A state flagship also will almost always have a contingent of kids that are near the top of their class, as cost, convenience, and the desire to cheer for their state team will bring those students to that school. In most states, a top student will find academic peers there.
SAT scores may reflect innate intelligence but certainly do not reflect work ethic or concern about grades. However, it is pretty hard to get a high SAT score without being bright. Kids don’t get over 700 on any section by chance. Most classes, however, do not require a high IQ to be successful. Hard work and diligence can earn As for most students in most majors.
As well as $$ and time spent on test prep. So, they could actually reflect work ethic if someone invests the time to study for them. They aren’t intelligence tests (which are debatable tests of intelligence anyway IMO).
As mentioned in my post, the same principle applies at less selective privates, as well as less selective publics. For example, you mentioned Georgetown and American. I’d expect Georgetown has a high concentration of excellent students who are doing A-quality work in their classes, so I’d expect to see a higher average GPA at Georgetown. In a report a few years ago, the average GPA among students at Georgetown was in the 3.5 to 3.6 range. A report during the same period mentions the average GPA at American is 3.3. Of course some specific colleges are exceptions, but the point is I wouldn’t assume that choosing a not as selective safety will help you maintain a higher GPA than the more selective reach, as colleges with a smaller portion of stellar students tend to give top grades to a smaller portion of students.
One of my roommates at Stanford was not at the top of his class. He had a below average GPA among Stanford students, and ended up switching to a major that has reputation for being easy at Stanford. However, this below average GPA among Stanford students was an overall GPA in the A- range. One would have to be near the top of their class to get a similar GPA at most flagships. He also went to an excellent law school, and now has a job that he loves at a great firm . Maybe he would have had a higher GPA at Stanford. Maybe he would have had a higher GPA at the flagship. Who knows? One person samples aren’t very meaningful.
Yes, many parents are full pay and have less expensive options at lower sticker price colleges. Similarly, many parents are not full pay and have less expensive options at highly selective colleges with excellent FA. In any case, I didn’t say that they’re were not valid reasons for choosing a less selective college. In fact I said the opposite, listing various reasons why a student might choose both more and less selective colleges.
As a junior, we put that type of school on the list but we kept on looking too. In the end, we had a range of schools that my kid was top 25% through bottom 25%. As a senior, there was enough to like about each school to apply. As we near decision day, we already have 2 acceptances with great financial aid from the schools where my kid was top 25%. It’s a great feeling and those schools have enough positives to keep them in the mix until the final decision, no matter where else my kid gets accepted.
Some kids don’t really find HS to their liking or really don’t care about grades too much but find the structure and course choices in college much more appealing.