<p>D1 is a math/econ major in A&S school. This semester she has to take an econ course at the business school of her uni. She said because of level students in the class, the professor wastes a lot of time in working through math formulas (writing out substitution of one formula for another). She is able to get her problem set done in less than half an hour. She thinks the course could be a lot more interesting if they could go deeper, so she is going to speak with the professor to see if she could work with the professor on a research paper. D1 feels it’s fine to have one class a semester to be a duh, but she would shoot herself if all her classes were like that.</p>
<p>Even at D1’s uni, same course could be taught at different schools. Microeconomics is taught different at A&S vs Hotel vs AEM. Outside of A&S it is taught without calculus, and D1 wonders how could that be?</p>
<p>I am one who always push for academic fit, even above social fit. Professors will often teach to the lowest denominator. I could also see how kids in Honors could feel a bit like of outcast. College is a big investment for everyone, whether your kid is a full pay or on FA, my vote is to go where he/she would be most challenged intellectually.</p>
<p>I am the parent of a DS at an honors program - his safety school. </p>
<p>I would say that he’s found some academic challenges but that the road is rocky, and the gen. ed requirements most certainly are taught to the lowest common denominator. He’s been told point blank that his questions are ‘too advanced’ for certain classes and yet he must take the intro prereq classes to advance in his major. He too has overloaded his course credits - varying between 19-23 credits each semester that he’s attended. Although a 2nd year at the school, he has enough credits (counting APs) to be a second semester junior, and would graduate early but for needing classes that are not offerred each term for his major. He too will admit that he does not have to work as hard as he did in high school, and he too will admit that achieving his GPA (just shy of a 4.0) was not the result of intense, and sustained work. </p>
<p>On the plus side, he will have some parent funding for grad. school, and he is well known to his professors, and has ample time for ECs and friends. He’s also taken a few graduate level classes to date by petition and those have been a challenge and well-viewed.</p>
<p>Oldest son is a Physics/Math major at one of our smaller state schools and in their honors program. Freshman year was rough since he doesn’t party either and was surrounded by less academically oriented peers. This year has been great. He switched to rooming with an honors bio major and since they both have many 8am classes their schedules work out well. I had encouraged him to go to a “better” school but he loved the idea that he would have money left in his college fund and no loans making grad school easier. This year one of the profs has asked him to tutor one of his classes (for$) and he has been offered a research position for the summer plus a TA position!! If he had gone to a more competitive school, I am certain that he would not be having all of these opportunities that the smaller and less competitive environment are offering.</p>
Why? Are you saying that your son wouldn’t have been good enough to get similar opportunities at a higher ranking schools? D1 is the head TA for a finance course at her very large university.</p>
<p>Apples and oranges people. No one is saying that good students can’t have opportunities at a public flagship. And no one is saying that an MIT student wouldn’t be bored silly at a 4th tier.</p>
<p>WHat we are doing to make sure that d isn’t bored- visit classes in the colleges she is considering. College one- where she was way above the 75% point in both test scores and probably also GPA- definitely not a match. THey have an honors program where you take every single class of the general requirements except for PE with only honors kids. You also get to TA for pay in classes. WOnderful, except when we went to visit, no one talked about the honors program. The class she visited- a second year or above literature class- was on a lower level than I know my youngest class had been on Narnia books in sixth grade. I am talking about simply using fact based questions in literature- where was the book set? who were the characters? Even with that, and not having actually read the book, my d had to suppress herself not to be answering the questions because the students were reluctant (they hadn’t read the book either but unlike her, they had never even heard of the book). The chit chat before class was inane to criminal (someone was relating how she vandalized some other girl’s car by spray painting words on it ), the students were totally uninterested, and d quickly took off that school from her list.</p>
<pre><code> Next school= where she is at 75% point in scores or maybe one point above (act). This school was completely different. THe two classes she attended both gave her new information. Both classes had intelligent discussions. Students in lunch lines could be heard discussing classes and ideas, not idle gossip. School is still on list of potentials.
</code></pre>
<p>Next up- she is goign to visit schools where she is above the 75th percentile but not by very much (2-3 points versus 8 points at the first).</p>
<p>I know this is from many years ago, but hubby was a valedictorian in a class of 400. He had SATs in the mid 1500s (before recentering). He attend a school that would definitely be considered a safety. He graduated from that college ranked 3rd in a class of 500. He loved the school and never felt bored or out of place. He was able to pursue some independent study and did his own research. Upon graduation he attended a top 10 graduate school in his field and went on to earn a PhD. He never had any regrets about the school he attended nor did he feel that he “settled”. He finished with minimal loans due to scholarships he was awarded along the way. I think a carefully chosen safety can be a fine option for many students.</p>
<p>Oldfort: My oldest son was incredibly shy and invisible as a high school student (large competitve high school) so at the smaller college he has had the opportunity to be noticed and improve his confidence. So probably the smaller less competitve school is a better social fit for him.</p>
<p>This thread is of interest because we’re in a similar position. We applied to a reach school (Ivy) and three match schools. His stats are in that 75th percentile range for matches and in the middle for the Ivy. One of the match schools, the one with the best program in his intended field of study came up big with honors college and scholarship, plus it’s a strong (USNWR top 65) and large state school. My S would not do well with too many kids less academically inclined as him (he’s the budding elitest, not me), so if not the Ivy, the honors program looks to be the best of all worlds from academic rigor, variety of social circles to choose from, research opportunities and individualized attention, and, of course, money saved that can be used for graduate school. I sort of think we’ve found a sweet spot. Hopefully it’ll work out that way.</p>
<p>That’s the key. Two courses at two different schools can use the same text for courses with identical descriptions and generate two entirely different academic experiences because the instructor has to teach to the level and at the pace that the average student in the class can handle. Honors courses can help, but the typical Honors program will have only a course or two per semester that is composed entirely of Honors participants. BTW, the talents of the peer group also influence how enriching out-of-class interactions and discussions are, which are at least as valuable as the classroom content.</p>
<p>I haven’t read the responses in this thread, but my son was in this situation. He was your typical underachiever in high school, excellent test scores, lousy GPA. He has some learning disabilities, but in reality boredom was his biggest issue in high school. He ended up at a newer, smaller state school that pretty much accepted you if you were breathing, haha. He did ok there, but was still very apathetic and had no clue what he wanted to do with his life. It didn’t help that he was very young, had just turned 18 when we dropped him off at school. His sophomore year, he had to choose a major and since he still had no clue, his advisor told him his new major was business. That was a disaster! He was bored to tears and hated his classes. He finally got a clue his 4th year in college. He switched his major to Electrical Engineering, transferred to a better school with a decent 5yr engineering
program and will graduate in December, 7 1/2 years after he started college. His new school has been much more challenging for him and he enjoys his classes and has had a completely different experience at this school. If I had it all to do over again, I would have either had him
take a gap year or go to our local state college/community college and
transfer after 2 years. He was just too young and immature to know what he wanted out of life. He has said to us several times that he wished his junior year in college was his first year. He spent that year taking classes that interested him, without regard to his major, and that helped him decide what course he wanted to pursue. He was also very vocal in his support of his sister not starting high school as a very young freshman. She was home schooled prior to high school and although she made the cut-off, she would have been the very youngest in her grade. We did delay her entry into high school for a year and was a very good decision for her. And as a plus, I had an extra year with her at home and an extra year before she leaves for college in the fall (although there are days that I would like to take that year back, haha).</p>
<p>S1 was a high achiever in high school and chose the honors program of a Big 10 school. He is definitely not bored as he spent many hours studying for his first semester honors freshman courses (engineering major but the freshman courses were calc 3, physics, chemistry, economics) and just earned a 3.5 gpa. Perhaps if he wasn’t on the honors track he would have achieved the deans list, but I know on this track he is being challenged and engaged. We are now looking for a school for our hs junior who is extremely bright but not as social so I am also wondering whether to send him to a lower ranked school (smaller and may be a better social fit), or a higher ranked one to fit him better academically, although with his personality he might be better as the big fish in the small pond rather than the other way around. Finding a smaller university with an honors program too would be ideal!</p>
<p>There have been so many responses, I can’t possibly reply to them all individually, but I want to thank everyone for sharing their experiences! It’s been really enlightening to read about what worked and what didn’t for everyone’s kids. I worry most about the “profs teaching to the lowest common denominator” issue, as well as social fit. At the schools where he is above the 75%, DS has been invited to join the honors programs, which helps; as for social fit, he is really turned off by academic elitism (which is why he wouldn’t even apply to some top schools to begin with), so that makes finding a social fit a bit easier. I’m hoping that, as some poster said, going to a safety school might result in better lab research opportunities. I’ll be so glad when May 1 arrives and he’ll have made his decision–although I don’t know how he’s ever going to make one!</p>
<p>Please keep the discussion going if you have more thoughts to share…</p>
<p>Anecdotally, it seems as if there are fewer positive reports on successfully finding “academic fit” for students in the humanities and soft social sciences (e.g. classics, history, linguistics, socanth–rather than mathy econ). Honors programs often offer interdisciplinary gened courses in these areas, but are the core major offerings also sufficiently challenging?</p>
<p>I can personally report that my science-oriented friends at State U are very happy and challenged. I haven’t heard either way from the non-math/science folks.</p>
<p>I think the point about size is important-- if 25% of the class = 3000 students, that’s plenty of company. In a smaller school it could be troubling. </p>
<p>D is a very ‘lopsided’ kid and takes AP history and English, regular level science and the most basic level of math class. (she’s a junior in HS). What she finds is that the AP kids are prepared and listening, contributing, and more open to different ideas. In the lower level class the students don’t bother to do their homework, don’t listen, and spend a lot of time discussing their extra-curricular adventures, mostly drug and alcohol related. So she’s taking this question pretty seriously as she heads toward college. It’s the level of maturity she’s looking for in her peers, as well as the level of teaching she can hope for.</p>
<p>Is there a critical mass of peers and institutional support for top students such that:</p>
<p>a) discussions inside and outside of class will be stimulating
b) coursework will be intellectually demanding
c) graduate aspirations can (and have recently been) achieved
d) resources and mentors are in place that foster individual achievement well beyond the norm ?</p>
<p>This “critical mass” and institutional support can be found at a variety of schools. The usual suspects and Honors colleges are places to look. My kid found it at a National LAC ranked around 50 with a whopping 1200 kids that awards a substantial of merit aid. In her estimation, the top layer of her school would have been competitive with any students, anywhere. Her experience in med school has (so far) confirmed it.</p>
<p>Her UG experience couldn’t have been better for her and we are forever grateful they found each other. ;)</p>
<p>Sorry, one more quick point. Posted before but might be helpful.</p>
<p>For this to be a good choice, you have to have a kid who can run from the front and still set their best time. Some kids need to be surrounded 24/7 with nothing but elite class runners or else they’ll adjust their performance to the norm. Some will be inspired by the better runners and succeed beyond their original goals. And then there are kids whose motor runs full-speed even if relatively few others are running on the same lap with them. (I’m sure there a dozen other variations, too.) </p>
<p>I agree with curmudgeon and have used that analogy with our own kids. Older S is a kid who tests very well, but was likely to settle for doing less than his best academically - GPA was lower than you’d expect in high school, given his SAT. We felt that he could benefit from the influence of a strong, academically focused peer group in college. He ended up in a top 10 school and has risen to the occasion, doing well - I believe in part because it’s the norm to work hard in that environment. He has had opportunities to do research and tutoring in that environment as well, so hasn’t missed out on those by being in a more competitive student body. </p>
<p>Younger child doesn’t test quite as well, but is much more self-motivated in high school. Is looking at some schools where his stats will be well above the 75%, but he can participate in honors programs. We’ve talked with him about needing to run from the front of the pack if he chooses some of those options and I believe he will do well in that environment. He may particularly benefit from the confidence boost of being a high achiever in that environment while his older brother benefited from having a very strong peer group academically. Different kids and different needs.</p>
<p>Best of luck in sorting through the options!</p>
<p>I’ve been waiting this week to contribute until D got a response from a school that definitely requires us to ask this question. She applied to a lower-tiered university that happens to have a very wonderful and selective BFA program in theatre, and also a quite impressive honors college, and has been accepted to both. </p>
<p>She’s done a lot of talking to students there on two separate visits. She’s aware that there will be many people on campus (about 5000 students) who aren’t the kind of student she is, but she’s confident that there are plenty who are, both academically and artistically. She has really liked all of the faculty she has met.</p>
<p>And as for the honors college, it sounds fantastic. And it definitely is a Humanities/Social Science program, no math or hard science at all, but a Great Books approach, which suits her perfectly. We spoke with some students doing that program, and they are very happy and challenged in it.</p>
<p>She may yet choose a school where the general population are more her intellectual peers - if such a school chooses to admit her. But this school gives her everything she needs, and we’re all very happy to have crossed that threshold in this process.</p>
<p>I’ll admit that I’d like to see her at a school with more recognition, more of a reputation all around for academic rigor, but I know that’s just a personal prejudice. This school graduates terrific people - in particular the honors college sends students to incredible futures, grad schools, etc. D will know deep in her heart if it is the best for her in the long run, and that’s all that I care about.</p>
<p>I am seeing this play out with my senior this year. First college she visited in session- total mismatch. Although tthey had an honors program where she would be taking almost all her classes separately, there was zero talk about this in either the tour or the info session. That is with the college having advanced notice that she was coming for a visit. They had her watch an upper level ENglish class that was at a level I expect in upper elementary class. Students were unprepared. </p>
<p>Next school=one where her stats are at 75%. This school was probably a school where she would learn, probably have some challenges in some courses, but probably not too extremely taxing for her. The discussion of the students here was at a level she liked. I am very comfortable with her going to this school if they accept her. Why not more challenging= well she is severely ADHD and schoolwork takes longer for her plus she needs a good GPA for law school. </p>
<p>School she is visiting today- her classes are this morning so I have no idea about that yet. But she did an overnight at the above school (where on Friday night her host took her to a lecture, then they made cookies and talked with dorm residents) versus this school where on Thursday night, her roommate was watching Jersey Shore (not a show d likes to watch) and discussing which frat party they will be going to tomorrow night.At this school. she is about 2 ACT points above 75% level and at least last night, her thought were school 2 is at the top of the list.</p>
<p>Now she still has two more schools she is definitely visiting= both with honors programs. One she has been admitted to and is a large state school. One she hasn’t finished the application and needs to do that this weekend. It is a smaller LAC in a city. IF she has decided Greek isn’t the way to go, she won’t like that one and maybe even the other school she has applied to where again she is in the 75% range. </p>
<p>THe schools we have as now no plans- a women’s college she has decided not to attend, a university that gave her very minimal aid and has other factors against it, a university that she is applying to honors college and since it is on quarters, the intensity may be good enough, and two we haven’t heard from. SHe won’t decide about visiting them until we hear. One is a long shot and though it would be challenging enough for d, I am really hesitant to send her there. It is our alma matter (for both h and myself) and while we got a good education, d is a more intense, much more ADHD version of myself (plus much better singing ability and much worse memory). I am not at all sure she would thrive there non-academically. I am sure the academics would suit her fine. </p>
<p>Thinking now about how we could have chosen colleges- I am not sure what I would have recommended differently to her. Her issues were that her test scores were lower than her GPA and what we knew she could do until this Senior year. We have a neuro-psych evaluation on Monday and maybe that will give us some answers.</p>