academic worries...

Parents Forum
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<p>Looking for advice for my 2 kids.</p>

<p>Son just came back from 1st semester at a top liberal arts college on academic probation because of Ds in math/ sci. He's never had a D in his life! He studied and received tutoring in both those subjects but he says the school is HARD. His preparation out of high school was solid (690 math sat) but struggled in both in high school-- we thought retaking in college would be easy because he was repeating. He will adjust his spring schedule to drop 2nd semester of sci/ math and add in humanities but he wanted to explore a career in sci. I told him he will either have to major in humanities or transfer to an easier school-- although with such a low gpa, I think it's impossible. Any advice? Would you make contact with his college advisors? (They did send me a copy of the probation letter.) I could set up a meeting but it's over 1,000 miles away. I'm also concerned that this will affect the generous need-based aid he got. </p>

<p>2nd son is in 10th grade, ld, same competitive public. With tutoring and hard work earns Bs in all-honors curriculum, placing him in top quarter of grade. Son just got 10th grade PSATs back and bombed-- I don't mean cc bombed, I mean cr will be below average nationally and writing will be substantially below average nationally. I am concerned that his skills will not be strong enough for college and would love to put him in a pg year but don't have that kind of $. Any ideas? His school is ignoring PSATs since he's doing fine in the curriculum.</p>

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<p>Hi
I can feel the stress coming through the thread. My older daughter is done with college, thank goodness. Her first semester she also received academic probation but she ended up on the deans list second semester. For her it was a matter on only doing well in the courses she loved. Your son already had tutors and struggled to get the grades he did. </p>

<p>As I read through your post I wonder if your son might be better suited for a different college. If he is committed to staying then she should but this might be an early sign that he might not be able to do well in that college. I suggest he speak with his advisor to get some options.</p>

<p>The second son did not do well on standardized tests. Should you be concerned? I would say it depends on what he wants to do for college. He certainly has plenty of time to raise those scores. See the SAT/ACT posts on this website for some good advise. Its nice to see parents keeping an eye out for their children's success. My daughter has two friends whose parents take no interest in their future and quite frankly I dont think they will help with paying application fees. Neither of these friends has got great scores, in fact they are pretty low but there are some colleges that they can get into. If the parents had taken more interest in these kids the kids would have done much better in high school and getting into college wouldn't be such a challenge. Good Luck</p>

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<p>I note that your kids have had tutoring to get their grades. It sounds like the interest is there for your college student, but not the aptitude in math/science. No matter where he attends college he will run into this. He should reconsider his goals. A career in humanities/social sciences with pursuing math/science reading for pleasure may be best for him. It is not worth a constant struggle/extra tutoring to get decent grades. You should seriously consider a better fit for your student- most people will have degrees from less elite schools than you describe and will have successful careers in their chosen field.</p>

<p>Will post this now, another poster is giving similar advice- crossposted. PS- it is the student's, not the parent's, job to discuss with any college.</p>

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<p>It sounds like you need to do some long distance coaching of your son to help him work out a path. Has he met with his academic advisor? Has he met with anyone in the counseling office at the school?</p>

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<p>What are your High School's average SAT/ACT scores? Is there grade inflation at the High School? Some kids just don't test well, that's why schools are willing to look at the overall kid. However, if a school has consistently low average SAT/ACT scores, then the scores might be valid.</p>

<p>That's not to say that your kid might not be bright anyway. It is tough for a bright kid to get a good education at a bad school.</p>

<p>690 Math SAT is a great score. How far did he make it in math in High School? If he didn't make it through Calc, he might find higher math in college tough. If he worked really hard in high school, it might not be his calling. At each level (HS, College, Grad School), the difficulty is increased. I breezed through math in HS, but hit a brick wall in College. I could "do" the math and get an "A", but I did not "understand" the math. That's when I knew it was time to pursue my other interests.</p>

<p>I would have a heart-to-heart with your Son. I would want to make sure it was "difficult", and not "partying". Once you are sure it is "difficult", then I would contact his counselor and discuss the situation. A phone call should be sufficient. Ask his counselor to contact his professors and get their thoughts on your son's abilities. After that, the counselor may have suggestions on what to do next, alternatives, other colleges, etc.</p>

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<p>College can be a big adjustment academically for many students. I know because I had a sub 2.0 gpa my first quarter at OSU, one factor being that I was scheduled an 8 am calc class which I occasionally overslept.</p>

<p>My successful solution was simple and was my advice to our DS. Think of college as a full time job. Get out of the dorm by 8am and do not return til after dinner. Spend that 10 hrs in class, studying or doing out of class work. And whenever possible form study groups.</p>

<p>Also, some profs are much better than others and it is wise to network with upperclass mates to search out the better ones whenever possible.</p>

<p>Sometimes it is a fallacy to think that transferring to another college will make it easier to do well in the classroom. A friends son attended JHU, which has a reputation for being academically rigorous which it undoubtedly is. He managed a 4.0 gpa frosh year at took a summer physics 1 course at our state univ, where he got his first B.</p>

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<p>Ds first semester Bio (non-elite, state school) was much harder than she ever imagined. Lots of kids changed their major. She pulled because of her ability to work extremely hard. Bio continues to be very challenging, D is a sophomore. She mentioned that a lot of others had problem even with general Chem., which was her easy class. She graduated at the top of her HS class from small well known private school that sends 100% to 4 years college. She had both Honors and AP Bio ("5" on exam) in HS with one of them using the same textbook as her first semester college Bio. Yes, college science is very challenging even for very top kids at state schools.</p>

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<p>Your son is fortunate to have such a caring mom that you posted here looking for advice.
I don't suggest that you talk to his advisors. Your son is old enough and apparently mature enough to handle this situation himself based on how hard he has been trying to help himself. Instead, I suggest that you continue coaching him through the process. </p>

<p>Freshman year is the weed out time for students who were considering science/math majors and careers. Indeed, often the first low grades that stellar students get are in classes like freshmen chemistry, which tend to be the most difficult classes at any school. That's because that class is the basis for science careers and majors, and unless a student can excel in it, they will not be able to handle such majors.</p>

<p>Consequently, transferring to an easier school isn't going to help. </p>

<p>I agree with those who support you advice for your son to consider a different major -- social sciences or the humanities. It sounds like although he's very bright, he doesn't have the aptitude that's required for the sciences. There's no shame in this. I went to a top public school, and the valedictorian in the class behind me went to an Ivy. After she encountered difficulties in freshmen chemistry, she decided not plan to go to medical school. I don't know what she ended up doing, but other people I know who ran into similar problems ended up with careers ranging from finance to social work.</p>

<p>As for your younger son: There are many colleges where he would be able to do well. It will be important for him to go to a college that matches his abilities. Second tier colleges would be his reach schools. One of your S's strengths is his strong work ethic. That will take him far. I've seen students like him be top students at third tier colleges, and graduate to nice careers in which they were very successful. For a student like your S, second tier colleges would be reach schools, and --despite his willingness to get tutoring and to study hard -- may be very difficult for him to academically succeed in.</p>

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<p>I think it's too early to be considering transferring. He knows now just how tough it's going to be and how hard he will have to work to do what he wants to do.</p>

<p>For me, getting a B or C in a subject I enjoyed beat getting an A in a subject I didn't enjoy.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Once you are sure it is "difficult", then I would contact his counselor and discuss the situation.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>The counselor* might not talk to the parent without the student's permission (they might not even be allowed to). I would have been very upset, as an undergrad, if my counselor had talked to either of my parents without my permission. On the other hand, it sounds like the son might be amenable to having himself, the parent, and the counselor discuss the issue together.</p>

<p>*I'm assuming that "counselor", here, is a reference to an actual counselor, rather than an academic advisor. Though the academic advisor is probably also not allowed to talk to parents without the student's permission.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Ask his counselor to contact his professors and get their thoughts on your son's abilities. After that, the counselor may have suggestions on what to do next, alternatives, other colleges, etc.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>It is NOT the parent's job to do this. I don't care if they are paying, this is a huge boundary violation.</p>

<p>OP, you seem to be genuinely trying to do the right thing. I would say, have a candid, <em>even-tempered</em> discussion with your son. See if you can pinpoint what made it hard for him. Did he underestimate the amount of time that he needed to spend on it? Does he know how to study that particular subject effectively, so that he is actually learning rather than just spinning his wheels for hours? Did his high school struggles cause him to internalize the idea that he is not good at this subject? Are his college friends taking much easier courseloads, thereby giving him a disincentive to put in the necessary time? Is there a medical/psychological problem? Also make sure that he is aware of and using the resources available (he's clearly using tutoring, but how about office hours, and his school's academic resource center)? Some bright kids start out with a mental block against doing this, because they are ashamed of needing those resources, and some don't realize that all those resources exist.</p>

<p>Of course, it may simply come down to, he is not good at these subjects at the level required to succeed in college.</p>

<p>I'd say that he should take classes that he's confident that he can succeed with next term, to ensure that he gets off probation. If he's still interested in pursuing a math or science career after that (and not every student who struggles in college in unsuited for a career in what they are struggling in), he might be able to experiment by attempting a couple of math/sci classes during the summer (to be dropped if they start going really poorly), or the next semester, but first things first.</p>

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<p>Science vs. Not Science</p>

<p>I had dreadful grades in college, and changed a planned science major to a humanities major. Two years out of my recognizable-on-CC-LAC I was back at my home-state public U with a whole new attitude where I earned straight As in the science coursework I needed to get into grad school in an agricultural science (where I took even more science and a fair amount of math). In my case, emotional and intellectual maturity made all the difference. Don't beat yourself up about this. Give your kid time to sort his life out a bit.</p>

<p>PSAT scores</p>

<p>So your 10th grader wiped out on the PSAT. Good. This means that next fall when the other 11th graders are in a swivet about the PSAT your kid can take the morning off (or maybe even the whole day off) because you already know that he's no NM competitor. Happykid never took any of the PSATs offered at her school because she doesn't have the math required and is generally a lousy tester. I had her try a couple sections at home this year and when it was clear she'd not score in the 200+ range, we scheduled breakfast at our favorite diner.</p>

<p>Now the question you need to answer about son 2 is whether he needs to take the ACT/SAT at all (and remember that all US colleges/universities that require a standardized admission test will accept scores from both the ACT and the SAT so he can take the one that is "easy" for him), or whether he'd rather concentrate on colleges/universities that don't require a standardized admissions test. Find a current list at The</a> National Center for Fair & Open Testing | FairTest</p>

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<p>The question that pops into my mind is was he in the right class? E.g. if he took Calculus in high school, did he jump into second year calc when he wasn't really ready for it. </p>

<p>Kids in our HS are often advised, even if they pass the AP, to take first year calc over again if they plan to be math or science majors. It means passing up some "free units" but it also means getting a really solid foundation in math which they will need moving up through the system.</p>

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<p>College math and science are really hard and the pace moves very fast. Niece at Penn State (now a junior) is an engineering major who got a 2.0 first semester and barely passed science. She had taken college calculus at Ursinus as a hs junior and still got a horrible grade in her college math course. She did pull it together and is doing much better and got a great internship after soph year. WildChild is not math-oriented and started with a calc course at his Ivy that should have been pretty repititious after high school calc. He said it was very hard and he had to get a tutor. He got a fine grade, but he said the curve was unbelievable- 58-60% was an A on some tests. </p>

<p>I guess my point is that your son might be able to re-group and get through the required courses, or he might be advised to switch majors. I wouldn't expect the transfer school to be too much easier. Co-worker has a D at an Ohio public and she also was a math star at her public high school. She failed college calculus AND physics and has lost her merit scholarship for the 2nd time (junior).</p>

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<p>I agree with MOWC that your son might be able to re-group and stick with science, or might want to change majors.</p>

<p>My S is graduating this year from one of the "academically rigorous" and tough grading schools mentioned above. He is a science/math guy, always has been and is an Engineering major. He struggled in two different courses his first year at that school. Still, he had a decent GPA both times (over 3.0), so his situation <em>might</em> not parallel your son's. However, my point is that - despite struggling in two courses that first year - he has gone on to very strong GPA ever since. It took some time for him to adjust, I think, to expectations for top grades at that school. He was not partying away his time, which it seems is also true of your son, but just needed to learn to work differently and - yes - even harder than he had in hs or in other college courses.</p>

<p>So, those two poor grades may or may not be indicative of what is to come.</p>

<p>I also agree with others. This is not a time for you to get involved, other than in the background, as his support and sounding board.</p>

<p>I think he should, perhaps, "hedge his bets" at this point. Plan his upcoming coursework to consider other possible majors, but not immediately abandon his original interest. See how it goes.</p>

<p>Some of the things my son did to help in the "struggle" courses: go to prof ofc hours (a lot); get new study partners/study group; buy a different text from the one being used in class, that worked better for him. </p>

<p>Good luck to your son.</p>

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<p>Thank you for all the wonderful advice! You have been very reassuring. I had no intentions of contacting the school (son left messages with advisor and dean the day he got his grades) but a friend told me I should be involved. Son is quite good at handling things on his own. As far as classes, Calculus was advanced, science wasn't. Mowc, he did say it moved quickly and wanted to drop down to Calc I at the beginning of the semester but the school said no based on his entrance exam. He is changing his spring schedule to avoid all math/science and will re-evaluate next fall when he is off probation. </p>

<p>As far as mean SAT at the high school, it is just under 600 in each section so my younger son's performance is unusual.. but, then again, he is unusual. He will likely easily score in the 600s in math but reading and writing performance on PSAT were poor. His disabilities affect writing more than reading so I was wondering whether to just deal with the test (with prep, he may get CR near 500) or whether to try to get him a PG year to strengthen those skills before college. I would not be surprised if he can get accepted at a decent school (our gd state flagship) but, unless he strengthens his skills, I can't see him making it through college unless he is in a program for disabled students, most of which are in lower schools. (I'm not that familiar with the regular curriculum at lower tier schools, though.) That would limit his choice of schools tremendously.</p>

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<p>As to the comment that he will have to deal with math and science at any school - there are schools that have no core, so those kids who are weaker in an area can avoid it. If the case here is that the student wants to bring up his grades and transfer, i would look into schools without a core.</p>

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<p>Boy, isn't this the truth. The classes cover lots of material, not all the material on the test is covered in class, problem sets can be supremely difficult. And heaven forbid if you should enroll in a class for which you don't have the pre-requisites! (Yes, my D did that!) </p>

<p>You didn't mention if he went in to see the professor during the class. That might have been helpful--I would hope that top liberal arts colleges live up to their rep of being student friendly.</p>

<p>I might give math/sci another try, but definitely not next semester. First item of business is to get off of probation and taking a class that could result in another D would not be smart. Your son has that figured out.</p>

<p>I would think about taking classes during the summer to beef up on math/science. During the summer, you don't have a million things pulling your attention away as you do during the first semester of college away from home. BTW, I think the second tranche of calculus is the hardest of the 3 tranches. </p>

<p>Could you specify what kind of science you are talking about? Some sciences are math-heavier than others. Physics and chemistry are more math heavy than biology, for example. </p>

<p>Best of luck. After my D had a disasterous first semester of sophomore year, she went in to see her advisor about whether she had the goods to major in her major (physics). He said of course--obviously her interests and her strengths pointed her towards some classes and her weaknesses pointed her away from taking other classes. Together, they came up with a plan that worked for her.</p>

<p>I hope your S can find a way out also if he is interested in science.</p>

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<p>Ellemenope, it was Chem. He did visit the profs several times during the semester, attended every optional study session and even visited the dean-- who tried to reassure him. I don't know how problem sets went; I do know that tests went poorly but son did very well in lab. Son said he didn't have bad profs and said both were very nice and helpful-- he just bombed. :( He said the profs knew he was struggling and trying and, near the end of the semester, both asked whether he was sure about majoring in science. His advisor was more idealistic and actually wanted him to take physics and chem this semester but son said no. (Advisor has pushed some really hard courses with an attitude of, "Of course you can do it, after all, you were admitted here.") Performance in humanities courses (ironically where his SAT I was actually lower) has been fine. We were considering having him beef up math/ sci this summer since the issue seems subject-related but school has limited offerings in the summer. He might ask for permission to take elsewhere (comm college or state flagship-- even as an auditor), I just wasn't sure if Chem I is Chem I no matter where you take it.</p>

<p>sptch, The issue isn't gen ed requirements. There are easier math/sci courses for humanities majors but, then again, those Ds probably fulfill the gen eds.</p>

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<p>Chem I has a lot of math in it. Not hard math, but manipulating numbers (changing things from grams to moles to whatever), logarithms, exponents. Lots of places for a person to make a mistake. </p>

<p>Unfortunately, majoring in biology would require taking chemistry up through at least organic chemistry...</p>

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<p>figuringitallout, my s had a horrible time with chemistry this past 1st semester and withdrew from the course. Your s is certainly more mature and responsible than he is though. There's been some distractions for my s so far - gf issues and connecting with college issues. He is willing to take summer classes to make up some units. Does anyone have advice for taking summer chemistry? How about some thoughts about taking chemistry during the summer at a junior college as preparation for taking the general chemistry class in the fall at his regular school? I assume chemistry is unavoidable for any type of science majors.</p>