<p>Here I am again dredging up old topics for potential applicants but it might be nice to have it on one thread instead of searching for it. My son, while a good student, would probably not be accepted academically at many of the top notch Universities mentioned on this forum. We are wondering if it makes any sense to even audition ot NYU or CMU with his numbers. He ended his Junior year with a 3.7 gpa, a couple AP classes and a 1660 SAT-of course that is the new version with the writing portion. I know that many schools use an academic cut, others strongly factor the numbers in to their acceptace decisions and others look primarily at the audition. If there are those willing to post information for individual programs it would help us narrow our audition field. Thanks</p>
<p>I'd also like to know more about this. We are currently awaiting SAT results, but we were wondering what S chances would be with less than stellar scores. He has a mostly B average, but he takes a lot of AP, IB and other advanced classes.</p>
<p>jacksdad,
NYU (and others) "supersize" SATS (taking the highest of subscores across sittings). That may make a difference in your son's case. I don't know to what extent the writing score is being considered at this point. Certainly his GPA is strong enough to stay in consideration. Also I believe I've heard that CMU is 90% audition</p>
<p>I don't know a whole lot myself about NYU, but I know my friend was worse off academically, but his audition pushed him through to acceptance. For most schools, if you call up and ask they'll let you know if auditioning comes before of after admissions, such as University of Michigan as well as Northwestern, who will only allow student to audition if they've passed through the university's admissions. But, for the most part, if a student is on the fence, which it looks like your son is, schools can fight for a talented auditioner.</p>
<p>jacksdad, I think the question is, does he want to audition for NYU? If it's a school that he's interested in, then he should re-take the SATs. As jasmom said, they will take the highest score in each of the three categories. A 1600 is going to present him a problem, in my opinion. Prior to the introduction of the new writing section, applicants had a much better chance of being admitted if their SAT score was higher than 1200. That doesn't mean that there weren't kids who were admitted with lower scores, they were, but it makes it that much more difficult if it's lower. The middle 50% figures for NYU (for math and verbal) are roughly 1310-1450, the last time I saw them, so I would really recommend that he take them again if he's interested in applying. Admissions to Tisch is equally weighted between academics and artistic review, so basically, he needs the academic stats that any other NYU applicant would need, to have the best chance for getting in. A 3.7 gpa, especially if it's unweighted and he's taken a fairly rigorous curriculum at his h/s is going to work in his favor, but he really needs to get those test scores up, if at all possible.</p>
<p>Jacksdad
Another option rather than retake the SAT might be have him take the ACT. My daughter tried both in April last year and did better on the ACT. She also felt more comfortable with that test. Even though we are from NY where the SAT is MUCH more popular, she prepped for the ACT between the April test date and the June test, retook only the ACT, scored quite well (but not in the statosphere like some CC posters) and had no difficulty being admitted academically to any school she applied to, including NYU (which is 50% academic and 50% audition). She reported ONLY her June ACT score (since she improved in every section over the April test), after requesting that her high school transcript NOT include ANY test scores, a trick I learned here on CC.</p>
<p>Another consideration is that some scholarship money is based on SAT or ACT scores as well as GPA and class rank. I know OCU, B-W, and Indiana (off the top of my head) have specific criteria for different levels of scholarship money. So he might want to try to bring the scores up for that reason too, not just to improve his chances at admission.</p>
<p>Elon is one school which requires a completely separate academic and MT admittance. The head of the program has said that she CAN NOT fight for a student. If they do not qualify for admission academically, the student will not be admitted, no matter how well they audition. Actually, the MT acceptance letter even states that the acceptance is only good if academically accepted. My daughter was accepted EA to Elon, so she knew she had crossed that hurdle, then had to wait until March for the MT acceptance. A long wait but it was worth it!</p>
<p>I applied to/ auditioned for both NYU and CMU in the very late 1980s. I attended a private school HS, but my grades were not stellar... B average... no APs... and my SATs were not great... 1080, I think... 440 Math (ouch... never was a math person... my GREs were not much better!) 640 Verbal. I had a lot of theatre/ dance experience outside of high school, and had strong ECs... sports, leadership, etc... </p>
<p>I was accepted to NYU - Playwrights Horizons (at that time there was no CAP21, and the musical theatre studio that did exist was not open to students until they were Juniors). I was rejected from CMU -- meaning I didn't get into the CMU School of Drama.... and my grades were certainly not going to get me into CMU academically :) (although, it was so long ago, I do not know if seperate academic admissions was even an option) </p>
<p>Things may have changed over the past 18 (ouch) years, but my understanding is that at CMU the audition is still really it. At NYU, they weigh both the audition and the academics... but I was accepted with subpar NYU academic stats because of my audition. </p>
<p>From my understanding, college admissions seems to have gotten much more competitive since I was applying, but if your son is interested in these schools it would be worth seeing if the academic/ audition weight is still the same in terms of admissions.</p>
<p>One of my best friends is in Meisner (not CAP21) at NYU who was just not a good test taker. He had a relatively good GPA but not great test scores by any means. I know there are going to be people who will probably defend that NYU is exactly 50/50 in terms of audition/academics, but I honestly think it's a little more malleable than that. They absolutely take into account academics, and I think more so than other schools, but I think the 50/50 isn't hard and fast.</p>
<p>A Hartt representative on another section mentioned that they cut off at the B average, I believe. (You could search if you wanted more specifics on that) I'm not sure where you are geographically or what you're looking for in a program, but your son would definitely be academically fine their terms it seems.</p>
<p>I have to agree with the advice about the ACT; my son managed a perfect score on the ACT, something that I know would not have happned on the SAT. It's all sbout learning style and it could make a BIG difference.....</p>
<p>Thanks for your thoughts. I know my kid would do better if he would just try to study for the sections that plague him but there is always another show that seems more important to him. The ACT is definitely an option that we have discussed and we will push in that direction. I wouldnt mind not having NYU in the mix anyway because of the expense-it is just so much more than any other school and the scholarship awards sound minimal without top notch academics or severe need (correct me if I'm wrong).</p>
<p>One thing to know about the ACT vs the SAT, and that is that the ACT has a science section that requires kids to analyze graphs, charts and so on, and is thus very "math-y." So even though the ACT's math section is less tricky than is the one on the SAT, that advantage might be counterbalanced by the fact that the ACT requires the science section. Just a thought.</p>
<p>For another person's stats....I got into NYU/Tisch-CAP21 this year with a strong GPA but only mediocre SAT score (no formal dance or vocal training but good ECs/sports/leadership/etc). I'd say if there is a high level of talent and strong/above average academics, you could give those schools a shot! good lucK!</p>
<p>Agreed. Don't let one aspect of your "portfolio" deter you from applying to a range of schools. The SATs are less important than GPA. Strength in either is good, while weakness in one can be compensated for. The audition and interview is most important for BFA applications. Don't try to be perfect. Spend time on your audition and try to keep the rest of your transcript as appealing as possible without stressing out.</p>
<p>The audition is much more important at most of the schools. Our daughter had the grades and test scores for some top schools. When we went to the CMU information session when she was at MT pre-college my husband and I were nodding through the stats requirements. Then they said for MT and Theatre, audition counts for 80-90%. Test scores, grades, and recs count for 10-20%. All that hard work for so little reguard. UCLA said the same thing. As stated above NYU says 50/50. Anyway our D found the right program for her. Just keep doing research, call the schools and ask too. Good luck</p>
<p>i don't like to put my stats out there, because im not very happy with my standardized test scores.... but i have a 3.8 GPA and am number 12 in my class. i do many extra curriculars-theatre and non theatre- and am in like every club under the sun, although i took the SATs 3 times and managed an 1820,which is my best combined scores...the highest i got at any given time was a 1760, which is much below the middle 50/50 at nyu. i took the ACTs and on the first try scored a 28, which is in the top 10% so id REALLY RECOMMEND WITH ALL THAT I BELIEVE IN taking the acts. although im not going to nyu, because no matter how hard it is to get in its even harder to pay for, to get into that school your grades are important, but i think even more important is your essays - make them very original... mine didn't make me sound the least bit intelligent and i even mentioned that in onbe of the essays, but they were real, and 2nd... try and connect with the person you are auditioning for. brush up on the questions theyve asked in previous years, i know mine were what studio do u want to audition for ...why...would you take another...why... the last book you read that really effected you. nail that, research, and youll succeed- great standardize test scores or not. </p>
<p>and to top it off, i didnt end up sending my sat's to nyu anyway, only the act's... so its not even necessary (although im sure it helps, im just trying to give hope to those who think its EVERYTHING).</p>
<p>I think that it is wise to be thinking about this question. CMU is weighed 80% on the audition and only 20% on grades and scores. Most schools consider GPA before test scores, and 3.7 is nothing to scoff at, depending on the course difficulty etc. Good luck!</p>
<p>We've all been talking about this and I know that several of us have noticed that, over the past 3-4 years, many students who normally would have been eagerly accepted (class Valedectorians with all AP and Honors courses.etc with much performing experience) have been "caught", if you will, in this shift de-emphasising grades.
It is been very clear what effect this sort of shift has had on students admitted to athletic programs and recent statistics show that schools with heavy Title IX programs for women's sports have seen a dramatic drop in college GPA's of their female athletes that parallels that of the men. Would anyone care to speculate on what effect this may eventually have on drama/MT majors if the same course of action is followed?</p>
<p>Lulu'sMomma, I think that when it comes to most/many college/conservatory programs, this emphasis on the audition/talent aspect has always been weighted more heavily in the long run than have grades and scores. And if you think about it, that does make sense!! A student can be brilliant "on paper" (with high grades, all AP courses, etc. etc.) and just not have "it" on stage. And a student can be brilliant on stage (with that indescribable "thing" that makes you want to watch his or her every move) and not have the highest-ever grades and scores. Someone on this list or another one once noted that students studying MT at a college level are really pursuing almost a "vocational" track, and I think that in many cases that is close to the truth when you consider that, in many cases, they will spend most of their time <em>doing</em> rather than attending lectures, analyzing information and taking tests on it. Thus, the schools want to admit kids who can handle the work, and GPA is not always the best or only predictor of that kind of success. That said, as a parent, I am as "hung up" on grades/achievement in the academic realm as are most parents. :)</p>
<p>It really depends on the school and determining the weight given to academics and how academics fit into the admissions process is part of the due dilegence that must be exercised in coming up with a good mix of schools to which to apply. In general (and there are exceptions galore), a pure conservatory program like BOCO looks at the audition and academics play very little, if any, role in admissions. A BFA program in a full university setting gives weight and significance to academics but there are variations on how this works. Schools like Syracuse appear to have a "blended" admissions approach where the audition and academics are looked at and certain academic criteria must be met even though the audition and talent components may be given more weight. You still have to meet academic standards, however, and the academics can play a significant role in merit scholarships. Then there are schools like NYU and Emerson where the admissions process is a parrallel bifurcated one. You must be accepted academically and based on the audition in 2 separate and distinct processes and if you don't meet academic muster you are rejected regardless of the audition. At UMich, you don't even get invited to auditon unless your application meets academic standards and at Northwestern admission is entirely academic based, even for theatre majors and you don't audition for MT until the end of your freshman or sophmore year. Then there's CMU where the audition counts for 80 - 90 % and academic standards are lowered for MT applicants.</p>
<p>What it boils down to is that you must research the schools to really know where and how academics fit in before you can determine if the honors/AP courses, high GPA and test scores are a relevent and significant part of the admission and/or scholarship process process. And consider this - as more and more very talented kids apply to schools, how are the schools going to differentiate between 2 equally talented kids and determine who may have the better self discipline, focus and motivation to succeed and handle the rigors of a college BFA program?</p>
<p>I agree with NMR's point that the actual course work for a BFA is not like BA work. Students who may not excel in a traditional academic environment may be perfectly suited in this more kinetic, vocational in the purest sense of the word, arena. If a student has amazing stats and great talent, that student would be well-served at Yale or Brown. The ideal BFA candidate is more lop-sided in many cases, and the heads of these programs do know what they're looking for. To assume they are compromising standards is incorrect. They have more students than ever to select from, and they know what qualities they are seeking to create a class. These qualities are not necessarily what Lulu's Mama thinks they ought to be. In the arts, as in athletics, talent is something the directors and coaches recognize. Unlike in sports, where GPA is derived from a general education (with tutors and selected courses), the GPA of BFA students is the result of grades in courses the students are well-suited for - and the kids who might not do well in a traditional academic environment have strong GPAs in BFA programs. Therefore, kids who may have little to show but talent and tenacity, when in a program that is all about talent and tenacity will shine and be successful.</p>