<p>The original poster queried whether his son had the stats to support applying to schools like NYU and CMU. His selection of those schools, while perhaps unintentional, really crystalizes the issue posed of the significance of academic record in the admissions process. Two BFA schools, both with top flight reputations and viewed as very selective. With NYU, you need to have the GPA and test scores they expect for their students or you aren't getting in no matter how you wow the drama department at an audition. CMU, the audition is what counts and academic record plays very little, if any, role in the process. So the point that's relevent to Jacksdad's inquiry is how important it is to research the schools and pick a variety of schools that mesh well with what your kid brings to the table.</p>
<p>This is, of course, a different issue than what does it take to do well and thrive in a BFA program once you get in. While I agree that most of the classwork, including "finals", is performance driven, keep in mind that there will be mandatory papers to write in theatre/MT history and script analysis. Honing these skills in h.s., through honors and AP classes, can only serve a student well.</p>
<p>Of course if you bring a lot to the table, that is good. Analytical skills and a breadth of knowledge is undeniably attractive. What I am saying is that the whole process is not quantifiable, and programs aren't brought down by admitting a range of students with different abilities. In fact, I believe programs are better for admitting kids who can work well with others. I am afraid that we adults encourage kids to "have it all," motivated by the hope that it will open all doors for them. Some kids who don't "have it all" do get in. Other kids (and parents) can become hyper-competitive, piling on credentials, but still, because they have a narrow list of dream schools, be denied - that can be a bitter pill to swallow. I am not saying anyone can get in anywhere, just that it's different from approaching admissions to a BA school (which I know you know, MichaelNKat, since you are eloquent on the topic and I appreciate your sanity immensely!). Anecdotally we see lots of kids on this forum (even in this thread) reporting that they got into BFA programs (even NYU) with less than stellar stats while we all know kids with the bells and whistles of multiple APs and IBs and all that jazz who did not.</p>
<p>All of the above points are well taken. I apologize if my response to Lulu'sMomma's query (about whether schools' willingness to take kids with lower GPAs but higher talent will eventually water down the GPA "pool" of schools, in the way she stated has happened with athletics) got us off the original poster's question, which was about his own son's GPA and admissions! It was such an interesting point that I felt compelled to respond. For what it's worth, I agree with both babar and MichaelNKat, in that talent and academics are both very important and both are needed to get into and thrive in a BFA environment. I have commented previously that I was pleased with just how (for want of a better word!) "intellectual" the environment is at my own D's arts high school, where she studies acting. In addition to the immense amount of time she spends actually "doing," there is also a lot of writing, analysis of scripts and plays, and so on. It reminds me quite a bit of my own track as an English major. As a parent, I am pleased that my D is an excellent student in her academic classes and I value that highly for a lot of reasons, and not just because of its potential value in college admissions. That said, however, I do know of a number of students with less-than-stellar academic records who were offered places at some of the top BFA programs and are thriving there in every way.</p>
<p>Think Jacksdad has received lot of good advice here. My take on it:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Different schools emphasize different things. I gather NYU is 50%-50% (academics/talent), and that CMU is 20-80.</p></li>
<li><p>UCLA told us during campus visit that it was nearly 100% talent evaluation by the theatre department, provided that the student had completed a college prep program and taken required SAT or ACT exams. That surprised me, but was clearly the message we received. UC Irvine, by contrast, reported the theatre department had no role in selection -- all up to the admissions office.</p></li>
<li><p>Try to get SAT scores up. Take a review course (KAPPAN or what have you). OR</p></li>
<li><p>Think seriously about the ACT - my understanding is that many students score higher on ACT, not because it's easier but because it assesses a different set of skills in a different way.</p></li>
<li><p>Find a coach or coaches to work with Jack on his audition and his songs. The majority of other applicants will have this advantage; don't put Jack at a disadvantage. If he's scrambling around two weeks before the audition trying to select a monologue or decide on his music, he's in trouble.</p></li>
<li><p>Don't focus on one facet of your son's resume at the expense of everything else. All else being equal, grades and course of study in high school are more important than SATs. Of necessity we are considering talent in musical theatre, so a brilliant audition or a lot of experience on stage, including a couple of leads in high school and community plays, can overcome a lot of questions about academic preparation. The whole admissions decision is a balancing act that takes a lot of factors into account.</p></li>
<li><p>I don't think the NYU admissions experience in the 1980s can be compared with what's happening today. I tend to discount "oh, I couldn't get into my alma mater today" arguments, but if they're true anywhere, they're true at NYU. NYU pulled off a remarkable transformation in the last 20-odd years, going from a reputation as a regional commuter school to acknowledgment as a premier US university.</p></li>
<li><p>I can't emphasize this enough: the further away you live from the colleges Jack is interested in, the more interested they will be in your boy. NYU and CMU have their pick of students from New Jersey, but applicants from the Southwest and Pacific Northwest are another story. UCLA, Santa Cruz, and USC, by contrast, can pick and choose among applicants from the West and are likely to be interested in people from the East. (Many of the UC campuses, btw, actively encourage out of state students -- perhaps not UCLA or Berkeley, but certainly fine campuses like Santa Cruz and Irvine). At the NYU orientation in April, the first thing the Tisch dean bragged about was the academic quality of this year's entering class; then she focused on the fact that the Tisch class represented 42 different states. Geographic diversity is a huge marketing advantage for today's universities.</p></li>
<li><p>Apply to a lot of places. This is a big decision. While $50 and $100 application fees can't be laughed off, the fees are chicken feed compared to the costs of attendance. Make the investment to expand Jack's options and he'll wind up happy. Talk with his school counselors. Encourage him to pick some places you're sure he'll get into; pick some that you think he can get into, perhaps with a bit of a reach; and pick a few that are a huge stretch. Then wait for the options to sort themselves out. People used to apply to perhaps three colleges; nine or more applications don't seem unusual for today's musical theatre majors. (Do the math: Imagine that each campus enrolls 20 male freshmen annually. If Jack applies to three campuses, he's competing for one of 60 available slots; if he applies to ten, he's got a shot at one of 200 slots.)</p></li>
<li><p>It can be nerve wracking, particularly in February and March, but have fun. You and Jack will learn a lot from this experience.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>One more thought. I remember when a student I knew whom I thought was a perfect package was not accepted anywhere. I mentioned this perceived outrage to someone who is a college counselor. This person told me that there was likely something in the student's essay or recommendations that put off the admissions committee. We can know a lot about an applicant, but there are some things known only to the committee. I guess you don't need everything to be perfect, but you need not to have anything be a disaster!</p>
<p>It looks as if Jacksdad has gotten wonderful advice here... the big bit being to research all schools carefully to find out how they each approach the process.</p>
<p>I was interested also in the discussion about BFA degree programs not containing general education coursework, like in a BA. At some schools that is true, but there are some BFA schools where the BFA students take almost the entire general education core in addition to taking the heavy course load in their major. So, again, it is important to research the schools to make sure that the program is offering the kind of experience that you are looking for.</p>
<p>I was the one who mentioned NYU in the LATE 1980s... boy do I now feel old ;) I agree that things change over the course of time and that a school that once might not have been as academically selective may be much more selective now... another reason why current research is so important :)!! I didn't know that NYU was a commuter school at one point. In 1989 when I applied it was already considered a highly regarded university that was very difficult to get into academically, and at that time the audition could weight the acceptance at least somewhat, however. It sounds like that has changed today. It will be interesting to see with all of these schools how things will continue to change as there are more and more programs, college becomes more expensive, and more highly qualified applicants auditioning for spots.</p>
<p>Re: NYU and 1980s. "Commuter" may have wrong word, but I'm not sure what else to use!</p>
<p>NYU was in a lot of trouble in the 1970s. There were even questions about its viability. It was going through presidents the way urban school districts chew up superintendents and selling off real estate to stay solvent. It was definitely regional, not national, and many students (even those from out of state) "commuted" to school since the place didn't have enough housing.</p>
<p>All of that began changing in the early 1980s, but I think the changes are even more pronounced today than when you applied in 1989.</p>
<p>blaneyboy -- thanks for the information. It sounds as if NYU and many schools have gotten much more competitive as more people apply to more colleges... Ther is also a greater population of college age people today than in the end of the "GenX" group, of which I am a part. Looking at this board and talking to young people who are going through tis process today I often think that we probably had it much easier "back in the day" :)</p>
<p>NYU was indeed in financial difficulty in the early '70s and did sell the University Heights campus to the city. But, two presidents in 18 years is hardly "going through presidents the way urban school districts chew up superintendents".
John M. Hester 62-75
John Brademas 75-80</p>
<p>Well, noble Gaul, would you believe three presidents in six years? That's going through presidents at a pretty lively clip.</p>
<p>The first was James Hester, who stepped down in 1975 (after 13 years at the helm) having, as you mention, sold off the University Heights campus to the city in 1973.</p>
<p>The second was Hester's replacement. You lost track of him. John Sawhill served through 1980 and had to deal with enrollment decline. Sawhill, I seem to recall, came to NYU after heading up the Federal Energy Administration, the predecessor to today's Department of Energy.</p>
<p>The third was John Brademas, who had been a member of Congress. Brademas took over in 1981 and served for ten years, stabilizing the place and turning it around.</p>
<p>Who led the place from 1980-81? I don't know. There must have been a caretaker, an "interim" or "acting" president. So there may well have been four different leaders between 1975 and 1981.</p>
<p>There was a lot of turnover at the top at NYU in the 1970s and a period of considerable financial pain. It is to the institution's great credit that it transformed itself in spite of these difficulties -- and it's also a mark of the leadership of the people who led it since 1980.</p>
<p>With a price tag of $50,000/yr. NYU should be in fine financial shape! Take Michael's advise & really research each of the schools on your child's list. It will save you time, money and heartache. Now is the time to be realistic with your child and yourself. Know your financial limitations and understand what you can truly afford. Middle class America gets screwed in the financial aid process. Schools like NYU, Syracuse, CMU and Northwestern cost over $45,000 but offer very little merit and talent scholarships to MT students from middleclass families. Is your starving artist going to have the money to pay back student loans? The whole "student loan" industry is very scary. Many are no better than loan sharks . Read every word of the fine print!</p>
<p>I certainly agree with Sarahsmom42 that part of creating a college list is to be realistic with your child as to which schools you can afford because a very uncomfortable situation is to have your child be accepted at a school and then have to say you can't afford to send him/her. By the same token, you can be very upfront and realistic and say that certain schools are OK to apply to but that they can only attend if the Financial Aid comes in at a certain amount. Make sure to be very upfront from the get go before applying. </p>
<p>That said, I feel that some families assume that more expensive colleges (ticket price) are going to be the most expensive to attend but this is NOT always the case at all. Sometimes, a more expensive college either has more endowment and money to give to need based aid or else is a college that gives merit aid (or both). My family is also middle class. Both my children receive substantial financial aid at two of the most expensive colleges, NYU and Brown University. These schools cost way less for us than you might think by their price tags. For my BFA child, the merit and need based aid she received at NYU was greater than at all her other BFA schools, even though many of them gave substantial aid as well. The bottom line is the FINAL price tag, not the ticket price. Avoiding applying to schools because of the price tag might not be accurate because it can be that these more expensive schools can come in as less expensive once the aid is figured in. Each case is different. I am simply explaining our own situation of a middle class family where the bill to my kids' expensive colleges is way less than the ticket price. Sometimes, one can attend the more expensive schools and have the final price come out lower than the cheaper schools, and shouldn't be avoided out right before figuring in the aid.</p>
<p>Going by the examples in the post above......my kid got what we feel was very good merit and need based aid at NYU, Syracuse, and CMU. She did not apply to Northwestern. We are middle class.</p>
<p>Speaking of the loan/ aid issue. I have a friend who is now trying to figure out if her D can attend the MT school of choice after looking at the merit/ aid package they received. Any advice on web sites that might list private grant or scholarship opps? She understands that this year they may just have to take out the larger loans, but is hopeing to look for potential scholarships for the future... and, hey, if there is money out there to apply for now, they certainly wouldn't complain :)</p>
<p>Also -- is $60,000 worth of college loan debt normal for a student coming out of college after four years these days?</p>
<p>If you have not already done so, look at Fastweb.com. They have a comrehensive list of scholarships, and there are very interesting ones out there, ranging from a few hundred dollars to thousands. I know kids who actively pursued those, and despite not qualifying for regular financial aid, got quite a bit of money.</p>
<p>Try using Google and putting in college scholarship+musical theatre, if that is the majpr of choice. Otherwise, just use the scholarship part and there wil; still be dozens out there. I would look at the very obscure ones if she is still hoping for $$$ for this year as sometimes they go wanting, but it is really too late for most.</p>
<p>Is $60,000 in debt normal number? I know people in their late 30's that are still trying to pay back college bills. Students need to be realistic about their ability to pay back loans before taking them out. If you are getting a degree in computer science, it may seem reasonable, but MT? Have you looked at the terms that these lenders are offering? Sure, zero percent looks great, but then you graduate and it goes up to 18, 22 or even 24%! Kids become over whelmed. They need an apartment in a city if they are going to work in MT. They have to give the landlord first, last months rent, plus a security deposit. Have you priced an apartment in NYC lately? A bus ride costs over $3.00. I would NEVER advise an MT student to graduate with $60,000 in debt.
Yes, we all want our kids to live their dream, but at some point, our "see it want it buy it society" is going to hit a wall and it's not going to be pretty. Parents, did you know that your kids CAN NOT GET A LOAN BY THEMSELVES? No lender will give them money without a co-signer. I'm not trying to be a downer, I just think that we have to be realistic and there are a lot of people out there who just don't get it.</p>
<p>It is very important to consider what is involved in paying off the loans. If a student is taking out loans, they need adult guidance regarding how much is feasible in terms of future monthly payments. I just want to add that not everyone chooses to have the student take out the loans. An alternative is Parent Plus Loans. We have chosen to take on the debt for our children's education by paying their student loans off and using Parent Plus loans for the part we can't pay upfront and which is not covered by the scholarship grants. A high debt for a student would be very difficult. A family has to decide who will incur the loans to pay for college and work out how they wish to handle financing an education. Once financial aid packages are given, a family has to decide which college they can afford to finance with payments that will be more realistic over the long term.</p>
<p>As MichaelNKat said, academics matter more to some schools than others. Conservatories are less concerned, but U of Mich for example won't even let you schedule an audition until they've received and reviewed your application, resume' & repertoire'. If you are not qualified academically, you won't pass through that first gate. By the way, the U Mich application, as well as the application at Emerson were the most time consuming. Once these are completed, the rest are a breeze!</p>