Academics: Which LACs and Universities Come Out On Top?

College Search & Selection
1

<p>This ranking is somewhat subjective.
Here I have what I think are the top 40 undergraduate institutions in the country. There are 17 Liberal Arts Colleges & 23 National Universities represented.</p>

<p>I am basing this on a couple of factors including selectivity, strength of undergraduate departments, and faculty.</p>

<p>I am trying to take prestige out of this as much as possible. This ranking is also based on the strength of the undergraduate programs. No public university made it in my top 40 list- which I believe while they have phenomenonal graduate programs are not as strong in undergrad- the relative lack of selectivity (in-state) also gave many of these schools a poor ranking. Keep in mind that I'm adding liberal arts colleges too. </p>

<p>NOTE: One interesting case in my ranking is Cornell. I am taking all of the schools Cornell has into account. Cornell would shoot up in the rankings if I simply used CAS & Engineering. Just something to think about why I have Cornell tied with Emory. </p>

<p>Caltech
MIT
Harvard, Yale
Princeton, Harvey Mudd
Stanford, Amherst, Pomona
Duke, Dartmouth
Columbia, Chicago, WUSTL, Swarthmore
Brown, Rice, Williams
U-Penn
Northwestern, Carleton
Tufts
Claremont McKenna
Johns Hopkins, Wellesley, Bowdoin, Wesleyan, Vassar
Georgetown
Cornell, Emory
Notre Dame, Carnegie Mellon, Haverford, Middlebury, Grinnell
Washington & Lee, Reed
Vanderbilt, Barnard</p>

<p>Comments?</p>

2

<p>Based on Academics & Rigor of undergraduate curriculum:</p>

<p>GROUP 1:
Caltech, MIT, Chicago, Princeton, Harvey Mudd, Johns Hopkins, Carnegie Mellon</p>

<p>GROUP 2:
Stanford, Amherst, Pomona, Duke, Dartmouth, Harvard, Yale, Columbia, Swarthmore</p>

<p>GROUP 3:
Rice, Williams, Georgetown, Cornell, Emory, U-Penn, Northwestern, Carleton
Tufts, Brown, Claremont McKenna</p>

<p>GROUP 4:
Wellesley, Bowdoin, Wesleyan, Vassar
WUSTL, Notre Dame, Haverford, Middlebury, Grinnell
Washington & Lee, Reed, Vanderbilt, Barnard</p>

3

<p>Not sure about the Rice/Swarthmore placement. A family friend just transferred to Swarthmore and said she has a bit less homework and studying there.</p>

4

<p>USNEWS and WORLD REPORT, whatever you think of it, has totally different rankings than those presented. And for better or worse it is what most people refer to regarding rankings. Williams in group III on the list? YOu should ask some current students who constantly bust their---! ANd what makes you say Bowdoin is less rigorous than Pomona???? I have friends at all these schools. Crazy list.</p>

5

<p>William & Mary is the public school exception. Also need to add Davidson and Colgate. No top list could exclude these schools.</p>

6

<p>Mondo, I'm just curious on what basis you are relating this information. Is this your impression of how schools stand academically? Because if so, I think that needs to be explained. Unlike USNWR, which uses some hard data, you use no hard data besides What Mondo Thinks Makes a Good School.</p>

<p>I subscribe to the idea that you can find almost any kind of academic/intellectual environment you want anywhere. For example:</p>

<p>--Two of my high school teachers reminisced about college as an intellectual playground; a place where they re-created famous experiments, went to poetry readings, drank wine with their professors, went off into the woods, and learned about the world. Their descriptions of college made it sound like an intellectual Disneyland. Both went to state schools far, far below the "level" of the top publics.</p>

<p>-- I have a bunch of friends who are either at or have gone to Harvard. I'll use two friends at two different extremes to highlight my point. The one who is the son of a major donor and didn't want to go to college to work brags about almost never doing work; the one who is now a PhD student scoffs at her PhD program's courseload, and says that Harvard was much, much harder. If I were to only evaluate one of their stories, I would either come to conclusion that Harvard is the easiest school in the world or the hardest school in the world. But because both of them have different personalities, different approaches to academics, and pursued different programs, I can only come to the conclusion that a single school means different things to different people, depending on what they want it to mean.</p>

7

<p>
[quote]
strength of undergraduate departments, and faculty

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Can you explain how you deciphered this information?</p>

<p>Berkeley's faculty, frankly, is the only faculty that matches HYPSM strength.</p>

<p>Also, with regard to undergrad program strength, USNWR ranks undergrad programs in both business and engineering. Berkeley ranks #3 and #2, respectively, in those rankings.</p>

8

<p>^^
It's okay if Berkeley isn't included in every ranking that is constructed on this board...really...it will be alright.</p>

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<p>^ Haha...I know it will be alright. Don't worry about me...why don't you talk about ur school?</p>

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<p>Whoa. </p>

<p>I wondered who would come along and find a new -- more subjective -- ranking system. </p>

<p>Anyways, seems like this is the perfect way to always put Harvard first.</p>

11

<p>"Somewhat" subjective? Seems like it's totally subjective. Would you mind posting more about your methodology, or is this based exclusively on your personal opinions?</p>

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<p>Anybody could find reasons to tinker here and there with Mondo's list... but overall you have to admit it has a certain ring of truth to it.</p>

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<p>WashU ranked even with Columbia, Chicago, and Swarthmore???</p>

<p>Cornell's academic rigor rating in post #2 seems a little low. I would probably move it up.</p>

14

<p>The two main factors I used are 'selectivity based on academic stats' and 'overall strength of undergraduate programs'.</p>

<p>My selectivity ranking is a little different than the typical one because the question I asked was: Which schools really look at the stats? For which schools is there no way to get around having poor stats (legacies, awesome EC's, etc?)</p>

<p>The other factor is overall strength of undergraduate programs (NOT GRADUATE).. if I added graduate.. UC-Berkeley, Michigan, and UVA would have certainly risen up in the rankings, without a doubt- here, I don't even have them in the Top 40. It also wouldn't do justice to the Liberal Arts Colleges.</p>

<p>I will show you how I ranked them... from what I've seen- I think WUSTL Admissions is much more stat-focused than Columbia, Chicago, or Swarthmore. This is how WUSTL tied with these schools- since I weighed both factors equally. </p>

<p>Even when looking at the national universities just below HYPSM- a 1600 4.0 student who doesn't do anything else will have a much better chance gaining admission at Duke or Dartmouth than Columbia or Brown. However, the 1390 3.8 who plays the oboe and has an extracurricular or two he is deeply committed to has a better chance of gaining admission at Columbia or Brown than Duke or Dartmouth. </p>

<p>I also decided to add a Cornell (CAS & Engineering only) to the rankings. Cornell would be just below U-Penn and ahead of Northwestern/Carleton- which would rank it #20 of all colleges and #15 for national universities. </p>

<p>SELECTIVITY BASED SOLELY ON ACADEMIC FACTORS
Caltech
MIT
Harvard, Yale
Princeton, Pomona, Harvey Mudd
WUSTL, Duke, Stanford
Amherst, Dartmouth, University of Chicago, Swarthmore
Columbia, U-Penn, Williams, Vassar
Brown, Rice, Tufts
Carleton, Northwestern, Cornell (CAS & EGR only), Bowdoin
Wellesley, Claremont McKenna
Emory, Wesleyan
Cornell (All Schools), Johns Hopkins, Notre Dame, Carnegie Mellon, Georgetown, Haverford, Barnard
Vanderbilt, Middlebury, Grinnell</p>

<p>STRENGTH OF UNDERGRADUATE PROGRAMS
Caltech, Harvard, Yale
MIT
Princeton, Harvey Mudd, Amherst
Stanford, Dartmouth
Duke, Columbia, Brown, Rice
Pomona, University of Chicago, Swarthmore, Williams
WUSTL, U-Penn, Cornell (CAS & EGR only)
Carleton, Northwestern, Johns Hopkins
Georgetown, Wesleyan, Claremont McKenna
Cornell (All Schools), Tufts, Wellesley, Grinnell
Middlebury
Emory, Notre Dame, Carnegie Mellon, Bowdoin, Haverford
Vanderbilt
Vassar, Barnard</p>

<p>Some schools like UC-Berkeley, UVA, and Michigan would probably beat out some of the top 40 in terms of strength of undergraduate programs but their actual selectivity is so low relative to the other schools on my list and some others that almost made it to the list (unless you want to make it solely OOS selectivity) that none of these schools make it to the Top 40.</p>

15

<p>I looked at my ranking list and I realize that I forgot two important liberal arts colleges.. Washington & Lee and Reed.</p>

<p>W&L and Reed are ranked ahead of Vanderbilt & Barnard but are behind every other school overall.</p>

<p>Washington & Lee is very stat-focused and is tied with Emory/Wesleyan.
Washington & Lee is tied with Vassar & Barnard in terms of Academic Programs for last place.</p>

<p>Reed is tied with Vanderbilt/Middlebury/Grinnell in terms of Selectivity which is last place.
However, Reed is in that same area as Emory/Notre Dame/Carnegie Mellon/Bowdoin/Haverford in terms of Academic Programs.</p>

<p>Schools that get Honorable Mention
UC-Berkeley/UVA/Michigan/Oberlin/Davidson/Scripps/USC/Brandeis/Colgate/Hamilton/Colby/Macalester/William&Mary.</p>

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<p>In what way is Middlebury any less selective than Bowdoin, Carleton, Wesleyan, Tufts, CMC, etc.? Your ranking is based entirely on what's going on in your mind. Which only you seem to be able to decipher. Let's see you break out some (any???) stats to back up your list.</p>

17

<p>
[quote]
a couple of factors including selectivity, strength of undergraduate departments, and faculty.

[/quote]

Selectivity based on what? SAT alone? no GPA? because 99% of the freshmen class at UCB are in the top 10% of their class.<br>
And Swarthmore, Williams are 2 tiers below Amherst?</p>

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<p>Academic Strength: (Not ranking Public)
Caltech, MIT
Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford
Columbia, Chicago, Duke, JHU
U-Penn, Brown, Northwestern, Cornell,
Harvey Mudd
Rice, Amherst, Pomona
WUSTL, Carnegie Mellon
Georgetown, Swarthmore, Williams, Carleton
Tufts, Claremont McKenna, Wellesley, Bowdoin, Wesleyan, Vassar
Emory, Notre Dame, Haverford, Middlebury, Grinnell</p>

19

<p>
[quote]
Selectivity based on what? SAT alone? no GPA? because 99% of the freshmen class at UCB are in the top 10% of their class.
And Swarthmore, Williams are 2 tiers below Amherst?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Those aren't tiers in the traditional sense... I have certain schools tie with others. All three of these schools are actually really close to one another.</p>

<p>As for UCB, I thought about that actually but class rank isn't standardized and is hard to use. You have a lot of people who come from magnet schools who don't graduate in the top 10% of the class. I'll consider modifying my rankings to allow for state schools though (assuming it's a similar case with UCLA, Michigan, UVA, etc..)- I actually don't have a US News handy with me right now haha (threw them all out..). </p>

<p>Since I'm from New York, I don't know what OOS admissions is like with Berkeley but I know for UVA, Michigan, and UNC-Chapel Hill that OOS admissions is not as tough as people say it is. I know of so many people with average SAT scores for these schools OOS and average grades/ECs who got in. I'm not sure about UCB though- I heard that's uber-tough.</p>

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<p>OOS admissions at UCB are in low to mid teens.</p>