Acceptance into major-rules and exceptions

College Majors Engineering Majors
1

Ds was accepted into engineering at Big Box U, where they apply for their majors during second semester freshman yr. Generally, they need a GPA of ~3.0 whereas in major GPA is 2.0. When I first saw this, it hadn’t made any sense to me but I hadn’t worried. Ds had accelled in hs, 5 on his Comp Sci AP exam, tested out of college physics, etc. Breezed into BBU, placed onto their accelerated major track by BBU academic advisor. We celebrated this as a great thing-he’s on his way!! Except…well, not. Like all other freshmen, he wasn’t prepared for the jump in challenge, except that unlike other freshmen, he was taking sophomore (and a junior elective, thank you advisor) major courses. He held up with his freshman general engineering courses, requs and elective but sunk while taking the Soph major courses. Without the two Soph classes, his gpa was above a 3 but not with them. In fact, the entire “accelerated” option set him up for failure because he skipped out of the easier general classes that his peers took to boost their GPAs, and he took Soph major classes that I now realize in hindsite the school KNOWS are harder, before he was adjusted to college study demands. He came into the school a “star” pre-major and now there’s a chance he won’t be able to major in it at all! It seems so unfair (and to say I’m upset that this wasn’t explained to us beforehand is an understatement!). Any thoughts?

Throw on top that he has Asperger’s and went without supports the first year, thinking he could do it on his own (admirable but he was wrong). He will re-take the two major courses this yr as a Soph but the qualifying GPA req was bumped up to a 3.2 so he will need almost all As in his courses (and no disclosure whether it’s even possible to get As in the major classes). I’m afraid it’s a losing battle. I get that BBU doesn’t have to care about their students’ success because they have so many but ds was/is a scholarship student who had so much potential and who could’ve (and probably should’ve) chosen to go elsewhere, had we known about this setup-to-fail scenario beforehand. Now it may too late.

2

That is a very unfortunate situation. I am not sure what, apart from taking the classes over again, is possible at this stage. Clearly he needs support to get the grades he needs. I am not sure what could have prevented this situation except an academic advisor telling him that he needed to take the less demanding classes at the beginning. However, what was the likelihood that he would have wanted to do that given his academic accomplishments in high school and the fact that he was being regarded as a star first year student at BBU?

Being a physics professor and an academic advisor, I have seen this happen before even with the most attentive advising possible. I advised my own sons not to take all the AP credit they might have earned because of this very reason.

All that is water under the bridge and your son needs to focus on rebuilding his GPA this year. I am sure that with the experience of last year and a better understanding about what it takes to succeed in college he will fare better this time around.

3

I think given his Aspergers and being a scholarship student, it is very reasonable for you and he to meet with the dean of engineering or his department and discuss his particular progress. I think you could ask for a private meeting, or you could meet him with your son, but both seem very reasonable requests.

Did the school specifically recommend repeating classes he got a B (or C) in ? Or is this some way you think he can up his GPA ? I am not sure all schools would find this the best solution to his particular problem. Again, talk to someone.

What was the sophomore class issue ? Calc 3? Major specific class ? Why not drop / add ? Why two semesters (not that you can change the past, but spring semester would have been much easier to right the sails) ?

The BBUs are impersonal, but they still have real caring people who deal with special cases (they just basically ignore the 90% of people who don’t need their help to keep their workloads in check).

I think until you really utilize all their resources, giving up on the BBU is not the right thing to do.

The key points here is that he really challenged himself and heck a 3.0 is a good GPA. He has some special needs which a university does need to provide some latitude for.

And, he is really interested and motivated to study engineering and he DOES have the academic skills to study engineering. A 3.0 is again, a good GPA.

Stop being terribly negative too. If the worst happens, he can likely transfer to another school and have a very good shot at a good engineering education (all ABET schools can provide that and most states have many). You need to be a cheerleader, he still has a good chance at this and lots of people don’t have a seemless transition to college and still have bright futures.

It is possible to get an A in any class, but it will take a lot of work. He needs to start today, not at midterms or finals, and study every assignment, read before every class, go to every study session and office hours. He has a huge advantage if he is taking a class a second time, but only to week 7, getting a C again on the midterm will have the same outcome, but he should be able to get an A on the midterm.

4

Thank you for the feedback. @xraymancs , I wish I’d had your knowledge back when ds was in hs. There’s ni advantage to being ahead if it causes a trainwreck. @PickOne1 , I’m not being alarmist. He went to BBU ahead of the game, having specifically chosen this school over others because of the appealing-sounding advantage-he had been told that he was admitted as a “pre-major” and would get skip intro courses and take major classes (ie Soph-level) second semester freshman yr. I thought he WAS in the major if he was taking major courses! Joke’s on me that the school let him take classes in a program they may not let him into. No explanation that his course load would be MUCH more difficult (acknowledged in the lower major GPA allowance but not explained) than his peers. Thus combined with his Asperger’s -his anxiety took over and he couldn’t ask for help (plus he didn’t have peers in those classes to talk to)-and he sunk. He got Ds in his two major courses. Brought his GPA below a 3, obviously. I think about how it should’ve been-if he’d taken classes with his peers, had time to adjust to the increase in challenge like his peers did, taken typical and easier GPA-boosting freshman classes in order to get into the program last year like his peers did… Instead, now he needs As in classes where at least one prof gives tests with an average of 50% (ds didn’t say this; I researched online for info)… I’m disappointed and wondering if other schools do this and, if so, WHY!!!

5

If this “pre-major” is a real program and not some crazy adviser suggesting some interesting classes for a bright kid, it seems you can easily go talk to the dean or assistant dean and discuss the best plan forward for your son. The Asperger’s is certainly something you can also bring up.

I have never really heard of a program that accelerates engineering students into sophomore or junior level classes. To be honest, engineering is hard for all but the best prepared students and there is huge attrition and poor grades in almost every school (limited enrollment helps, but they still can’t tell if your high school physics was college level or not). AP credit is not college equivalent for an engineering prerequisite unless a teacher really teaches at college level. There are legions of stories of people failing out of engineering even in a standard 4 year plan. These aren’t all the bottom 25% … there are lots of ways to go wrong.

No one is that far ahead of the game in engineering, at most a semester or two. They do not teach college level engineering classes in high school, ever.

If this is a newer program, they may have gotten too ambitious. They need to provide some overview after first semester too, it really would have been easy to self-correct then.

Also, which classes ? Calc III should be doable. Organic is a weedout class. I am sure there are others. Were the issues lack of knowledge, lack of study skills, or something else ? What successful strategies did others use ? Some of them were really a year behind your son and did well in say Calc 1, which was new to them. How did they do that ?

… and I would really recommend a very carefully planned path to getting an A in the two classes he is repeating and in other tough classes. While this is your son’s show, I would hover to the extent that he tell you his grades and you help him get all the available help. This is sort of a coach rather than cheerleader …

What type of engineering ?

I will say UCSD without direct admit into engineering was a real turnoff. They warn you not to take honors or advanced classes in hope you can get into engineering by having a really high GPA. But what if you don’t get in, now you have wasted a year taking repeats and less interesting classes.

Direct admit into engineering is better, but there are still folks who either need more time or just realize this is not something for them.

Does your son really, really want to do engineering no matter what it takes ?

You seem angry, how does your son feel about this ? It is really better if he takes responsibility for some of it, he should have gotten more help, should have worked harder, should have gone to speak with adviser or at least with professor after he noticed he was not doing well (a D is not a surprise). There is a lot of opportunity for growth here for him …

6

I’ve certainly heard of freshmen starting in sophomore or junior level courses (with varying degrees of success) at a number of schools provided the prerequisites are completed. However, I’m not sure why it seems so surprising here that the coursework would be “MUCH more difficult” compared to peers starting out at the normal freshman-level courses. That seems like common sense to me, and I don’t know why it is somehow a failing of the advisor for not specifically saying thy sophomore- and junior-level courses are harder than freshman-level courses. Maybe they should have been more up-front about the risks, but really it should go without saying that those courses are more difficult.

I agree that the proper next course to take is speaking with an advisor or dean or other administrator to look into your options.

7

One real disadvantage to big public universities is that they just don’t cater to students, regardless of scholarships or special needs. They don’t have good advising and don’t care if your son or someone else gets into engineering. With engineering being a hot major, they now added the pressure of getting into your major by competing for a spot.

I was a full scholarship student at a big school and got hassled for AP credit, being off the typical schedule, didn’t get housing, didn’t get my scholarship money, and really the state clerks just didn’t care at all. If all went well, I was able to register for classes.

One answer to this is to read every web page and ask lots of questions. A big bureaucratic school has written rules for everything, so make sure you know the rules (like the GPA rule) down to the letter. More narrowly, every syllabus actually reveals the secret to getting an A, maybe you (mom) need to help him check off the boxes and stay focused. For an AS kid, 19 is very young to be trying to go it alone.

I think helicopter parents are every universities fear, but with an AS son, you really have the right to be his advocate. Some of the suggestions below might be better if your son can do them alone, some might be better together, some like the LD office, might be very rational to go there alone and then present his “accommodations” as extra help so he doesn’t feel somehow uncomfortable.

There are some folks higher up in the university who probably do care that a scholarship student with high potential is not thriving and that they are not serving a student with Aspergers. If the scholarship office exists outside of fiinancial aid office, I’d stop by there. A big state U will likely have an office for learning disabled students (and AS is often grouped with those) who may be able to find you additional resources such as advising, tutoring, social groups, I don’t know. The engineering school has department chairs who can discuss things with you as well as deans. The best thing would be if his department would try to find him an advocate to help him get into the department, a professor or even a grad student or even someone from say psychology who is interested in a really high functioning AS person. I’d even consider talking to the two professors he got Ds from, did they know he was a freshman and struggling ? I am a bit puzzled why he was not advised to drop the classes if they were wildly too hard. D’s are pretty rare in a junior level class.

If you (and I mean mom) take the time to talk to all these folks it is possible you can come up with a good plan to get him on track to engineering. It may take 5 years (is there a dual major option with engineering delayed a year?), it could even involve transferring to a school closer to home or a smaller school or a school with more specific resources. You could hire a grad student tutor, if you have the means, who could like really help keep him on track … and provide targeted help.

Honestly, I might also just ask if they could not count the sophomore/junior classes, depending on his class load, he may have enough major credits with good grades to just not average those in.

I really would also investigate ways to find resources that will him navigate this big school in a very difficult major in years to come.

PS - A 50% could easily be a B or higher. There are many ways of grading, you can curve so everyone hovers around 70%, you can just count number of problems right. I have seen 30s as an average, but same distributions of grades, if you had a 45, you had an A.

If he is taking a class for the second time and does everything right and has more resources, it may be very doable.

8

It’s a little late now, but I strongly advise students to avoid any school that isn’t a direct admit to their desired major no matter how smart they are and regardless of the school’s reputation. There’s no need to take the risk. Up here in the NW, Washington is the classic example.

As for starting in advanced classes, my son was able to get a significant jump with AP and dual enrollment credit. He goes to a competitive program that is a difficult admit and has done very well. He’s also had to learn the ropes of scheduling. His advisors are there, but he’s deeply involved, with multiple layers of class contingencies in the wings every quarter. It can be done with success.

Here’s the GIANT CAVEAT, it is hard enough for my son who is extremely engaged and he doesn’t have Aspergers. That adds a big twist. You can’t put the cat back in the bag as far as his first year goes, but most schools have special resources for students with atypical needs. See if you can tap into the school’s additional assets.

Good luck!

9

I would not make that strong a recommendation, since many schools or divisions admit everyone undeclared, and entering many majors just means passing (with C or higher grades) the prerequisites and staying in good academic standing. But I would say that if the student is not a direct admit to the major and the major requires a high GPA or highly competitive admission process to enter, going to that school is likely to be unnecessarily stressful and high risk (of not getting into the major). Yes, University of Washington is a prime example of this for several majors. Purdue and Minnesota for engineering majors can also be seen as examples, since students need a 3.2 GPA to assure admission to most engineering majors, with lower GPAs not assured (admitted based on available capacity relative to popularity of the major).

10

Thanks for clarifying @ucbalumnus. I threw everyone into the same category when I was really meaning programs with either high GPA limits or even worse that are competitive again after the competition of general admission. I believe UW is the latter.

11

Both of you are right. I recommend that students avoid the stress of schools that require Freshmen “to qualify” for specific majors/departments.

12

This is why TX A&M is off the table for our son.

13

I didn’t realize that A&M did that now. They didn’t as of a year or two ago.

14

But do the others put you into an accelerated program and then have you compete with the kids taking the easier classes? I’ve been in academia for years with a PhD and I thought I was more clued into the ins and outs of college programs but color me stupid because I thought that getting into a pre-program that advised him to take TWO in-program sophomore level classes meant that he was already “tracked”. It was only mid-second semester that I realized thus wasn’t true-their response was too bad so sad. Again, the Soph classes are hard enough that they don’t even pretend to have high expectations for the grades, and online reviews for at least one class supports this, but there’s no allowance for him once he’s tracked and certainly no advisor counseling otherwise to help him get into the program. He’s a throwaway, I guess, which makes me feel sick. I called the a Office of Disability Services-ds applied and we’re all meeting with a counselor Thurs to get supports in place-to find out if she had recommendations re who we could talk to while there to see if there’s a pathway into the program for him and she said he just had to jump through the 3.2 hoop while taking the harder classes. I looked up the Chair on my own but there was not a single mention of him dealing with undergrads. In fact, his big accomplishment is working with an international program. Does that raise the status of BBU? Cuz I don’t see how that helps BBU’s students :frowning: so many red flags in hindsite…

15

Oh crud…piecing this together slowly because, as you know, parents aren’t allowed into advising. So I said that there’s track A and track B (advanced, for students entering with programmjng experience)? Well, ds was apparently on a non-existent track C!! Maybe that’s why nothing was making sense (and further explains why he had no peers in his classes!!!). I. Am. Speechless. Ds took track B’s second semester programming class first semester; and two track B (advanced track, remember) classes from sophomore year…freshman yr second semester. I guess I should be speaking with advising to find out how the heck this happened!!

16

@boneh3ad I believe TA&M just started the freshman apply for a slot in engineering last year. Like @dallastxmom, we immediately dropped A&M from our s’ school list since we only want direct admit programs.

I should add that I only knew to think about such an issue due to the incredibly helpful folk on CC in general, and the engineering majors crowd in particular. There are so many ins and outs with college now that I never would of thought of and it has had a big impact on how my h and I counsel our s about his college options.

17

Texas A&M changed their admission policy for engineering during the 2014-15 school year, so it is no longer direct admit. They stated there were too many students changing their minds. Of course, I like direct admit, but at least this policy lets kids apply after their first semester of freshman year (up to the end of sophomore year), with the grades of at minimum one math (calc 1 or above), one science, and 1 engineering class. They also add a holistic approach focusing on involvement, interviews, to name a few. At least this process lets kids change course rather quickly instead of waiting a year or two before applying. We’ll see…

18

ABET is trying to encourage schools away from the old philosophy of driving 60%+ of freshman engineering students out of the major, typically by having them get bad grades which then were part of their GPA. Felt bad for a few friends who had a 2.5 GPA after freshman year and then transferred into a typically easy major with folks with 3.8s.

And because engineering still has good starting salaries and good job prospects, demand for spots at top and likely even at all ABET engineering schools is probably at historic highs.

The holistic approach makes sense. Some people will doggedly get through a major by just working harder than others, other folks may do better freshman year with high school experiences and really not be that interested or willing to work. Starting salaries to me is not a great reason to go into engineering, unless you are willing to work and have some math talent.

So you can have limited enrollment programs with some kind of later entrance criteria (these range from really competitive at say UCSD to much easier at say UMd). You can have a larger pool of direct admits and have some attrition. You can have competitive admission for all slots.

I guess each student can decide which of the options they actually get make sense for them. You can apply to a school and only take it if you get into LEP. You can apply to a school and take easy classes freshman year, or self study, or whatever, to improve your odds in competitive admission process.

I think they should weigh honors or advanced classes like in high school to avoid penalizing those who want to work hard in freshman year and actually learn something, although this does not seem to be standard. {I think colleges really prefer you to be really familiar with say Physics I, Mechanics rather than race ahead to something else}.

To OP - does sound like some advising errors and definitely an overaggressive approach for an unproven student (again high school and AP living at home is not equal to college classes).

I guess you have privacy concerns, but more details might give you more specific info. Your choice…

19

In light of that, it’s likely an effort to increase retention rate as part of their 25 by 25 initiative. I suspect it’s a similar motivation elsewhere.

20

Was actually ASEE

https://www.asee.org/retention-project/best-practices-and-strategies/ASEE-Student-Retention-Project.pdf

25x25 is interesting … always mixed reviews about how many engineers US really needs (and will have jobs for).