<p>Different schools use different tactics to recruit top students but they all need them. Some schools take pride in not offering top students merit scholarships but they offer the tuba player and volleyball player with 4.0 GPA’s and 2300 SAT’s “band and sports” scholarships.
5-star football players, muscians, and students will gravitate to schools that reward their skills with scholarships. Top teachers will go to schools that pay them the most, the Yankees will win, and the SEC will dominate college football because they all will pay for quality. HPYS can get away with not offering academic scholarships but few other schools can.<br>
Where are the 2011 National Merit Scholars going to school? How long can Hopkins (31 NMS), Georgetown (27 NMS) and Wake Forest with only 6 NMS maintain their rankings and reputations? USC, Vandy and U. Chicago recruited 254, 226 and 255 NMS in 2011. How long can UCLA (34 NMS) and UVA (37 NMS) stay ranked ahead of UNC (149 NMS) U. Florida (155 NMS) and Ga. Tech with 126 NMS? Students and guidance counelors see this trend and employers and graduate schools will as well.</p>
<p>Please be sure to provide accurate data. Schools can choose to sponsor NMSF, as do Vanderbilt, Chicago, UNC, Florida, Ga. Tech, etc., thus SUBSTANTIALLY increasing their number of winners attending the school. I can speak for Georgetown, which has over 150 NMSF in its freshman class, but DOES NOT SPONSOR ANY OF THEM, therefore its number of only 27 winners (NMSF can be sponsored by organizations and parents’ employers to become winners). Sponsoring a NMSF to become a winner is giving merit-based aid, and some schools, including Georgetown, are philosophically opposed to providing merit-based aid. </p>
<p>Also, you need to look at the admissions process at the schools and how they vary. At Georgetown, the process is holistic, consistent with its cura personalis philosophy of education. Standardized test scores are underemphasized at Georgetown relative to other top schools, and are viewed in a very different context–I have never seen an applicant at Georgetown admitted because of his SAT or ACT scores–there are no “cut-offs,” but the scores are not viewed as “accomplishments” as they are at other schools (Vanderbilt, Duke, Cornell, etc.). At Georgetown, you will find far more high-scoring students that are denied and “lower” scoring students who are admitted than at our peer schools.</p>
<p>Why does all the discussion of university quality center around selectivity? Sorry, but this pales in comparison to other markers of a good university such as teaching quality/outcomes/class size etc. </p>
<p>But regarding selectivity vs GU, as medman pointed out, Vandy’s yield is still lower than Georgetown’s even though GU does not put much weight on ED and Vandy takes 35-40% of its class ED. That means Vandy is losing a whole lot of RD students to GU and other peer schools. </p>
<p>I think Vandy has two issues with respect to losing so many RD’s to peer schools (putting aside HYPSM, which are not peer schools). First, Vandy is known for good quality in everything, but nothing outstanding ala Chicago, Columbia (core), GU (SFS), Duke, Wash U, Cornell, & Hopkins (math & science undergrad), Brown, Dartmouth (liberal arts), Penn & NU (business). Vandy’s marketing slogan “balance” highlights this. Second, Vandy has focused almost exclusively on SATs in the admissions process, and it is one of the few selective schools that does not require an additional essay beyond the common app. GU on the other hand is not wedded to SATs and has a much more holistic admissions process that includes essays and interviews. Thus, GU obtains more information that helps it select students with a ihigh probability if attending, while Vandy loses a lot of the high SAT RDs to its peers.</p>
<p>Another thing to consider is Nashville’s ride in public perception. It is no longer considered a country-music city, but a hip, vibrant, and growing place.</p>
<p>My point is this: 5-star football players will go to school’s that value their skills with scholarships. They are not going to a school that will not offer them a scholarship. The same holds true for top students. People want to go where their skills are rewarded. How long can some top schools, that do not offer merit scholarships, expect to recruit top students from schools that do value these students and reward them with merit scholarships. It’s not a difficult decision for students or families to make. School A is a top ranked school and is free and school B is a top great school and 4 years will cost $200,000 to attend. I wonder, where should I go to school???</p>
<p>Much is being made of schools like Vanderbilt/Duke “luring” top students with merit awards. Piffle! it has to be considered in context, which would reveal that this is a tiny factor in the overall $$$ shelled out by the rich Ivies for “need based” aid. By the way, even a family income up to $150K can get a student an 80% ride at some Ivies!!!
1.There is a huge # of top students who qualify for grants at the entrenched “top” schools.It is often cheaper for a top student to attend HYPS type schools than a state school. The great majority of other private schools have no chance to compete for these students. Of course, the HYPS types are superb schools, but they use their $$$ as an added cudgel to repel competition from other comparable schools who have less resources.
2. How should Vand/Duke etc compete with this reality. They have an OBLIGATION to use their resources to at least get a handful of the very best students who do not get “need” aid at the Ivies, but may go to Vand/Duke if a merit award is offered. This is a much smaller % of the student pool to begin with!!!
3. It is silly to decry Vand/Duke doing this, and to even suggets that this is a dirty trick. These schools are comparable to many Ivies, and suffer from the label conscious advantage gratuitously enjoyed by Brown/Cornell/Dartmouth/Penn etc. Vand/Duke get a very small # of students by using merit money, and they would be REMISS if they did not do this. How else to break the sclerotic hold those Ivies have on the public imagination???
4. With the influx of such top students, added to great faculty and other resources, over time there will be broad recognition that schools other than the Ivies are equal or better in real merit. I imagine there must have been those who once resented and were threatened by Stanford encroaching on the hallowed turf these older schools had historically regarded almost as a birth right!!! No more.</p>
<p>I applaud Vanderbilt/Duke for not being afraid to offer scholarships to the best and brightest students. There are very few true merit scholarships available at elite universities that dont have some other limiting factor. How is rewarding a student based on academic achievement offensive? Is it somehow more offensive than offering money to athletes?</p>
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<p>Its offensive to the Ivies because Vanderbilt/Duke are “stealing” some of their kids. I think its great that top students can graduate debt-free.</p>
<p>“Offensive to the Ivies because they get their kids stolen”. Laughable. There is a book by the former director of admission at Princeton that will astound you. It did me! Do people know that only 25-30% of all slots at the HYPS types are available to students on PURE ACADEMIC grounds??? The rest are reserved for sports/minority/legacy/socially disadvanted/early decision (if applicable) students!!! At the same time, the great majority of APPLICANTS are competing on pure academics. Do the math!!! An academic applicant may only have 2-4% admission odds in Regular Decision, while the other categories enjoy 20-40% odds. So much for the Ivies felling “robbed” by losing top academic applicants. They already turn them away IN DROVES, and seemingly have different priorities for the majority of their slots. Many of them maintain 30-40 sports teams. Many students at Harvard, for example, would never get into Duke or Vanderbilt on pure academics. They are there for wholly different reasons. Hey, the director of admissions at Princeton says so!!! If any Ivy feels robbed by losing a student on merit award to Vanderbilt…heck there are thousands more available to them to replace that student. They just don’t really care that much it seems, and take pride in the % of valedictorians they reject. Of course, I know that there ARE many truly brilliant students at those schools, so I don’t mean to sound cynical. But facts are facts, and should be viewed in context. Which is more offensive: Vanderbilt giving a Cornelius Vanderbilt Scholarship to a brilliant mind who may benefit society for life, or Harvard admitting an under- 2000 SAT scorer to play Water Polo for a few years (maybe)…and have NOTHING unique to offer society after college???(I can refer to such students whom I personally know of, by the way).</p>
<p>Oh and add to my above post: Harvard also giving such a Water Polo player more money in “need based” aid than the Cornelius Vanderbilt award is worth. If any school in this example is buying anything, it seems to me that Vanderbilt is spending money with far greater fealty to the academic mission of a place of higher learning than is Harvard. I would congratulate both of these students for their good fortune, and wish them great success. However, I am sure everyone can tell which student I consider more deserving.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>I was a graduate student at Vanderbilt in the latter part of the 1990s, and I remember that Vandy at that time was competing Emory, Wake Forest, and UVa in terms of undergraduate student recruitment and was along with Notre Dame and Emory in terms of national reputation. As far as the USNWR ranking is concerned, Northwestern, Georgetown, and Rice were all substantially ahead of Vandy and Duke was out of reach. Reading some of the posts here, it sounds to me that many are still talking about Vandy of ten years ago. Vanderbilt is a very different school now in terms of reputation, prestige, and the quality of applicants and entering students than ten years ago. </p></li>
<li><p>I doubt that merit scholarships, no-loan financial package, common application, or any other admissions tactics could fully explain Vandy’s rise. </p></li>
<li><p>Vandy’s become an ivy caliber school, simply because more and more top students are choosing Vandy. Both those kids and their parents are INTELLIGENT enough to decide which college to apply and choose.</p></li>
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<p>Drunko is correct. Vandy is doing a lot of things the right way. Vanderbilt has pulled ahead of UVA, Emory, Georgetown, and Wake Forest. The “old Ivey” schools, other than HPYC, are slipping. Hopkins, MIT, Cornell, U. Penn, and Georgetown are schools your grandfather went to. The New Ivey schools are Notre Dame, Stanford, Rice, Vanderbilt, Northwestern, U. So Cal, and Duke. Students today want more than only academics. They want school spirit, social opportunities, exciting sports teams, new dorms, and great cities to spend 4 years in. Vanderbilt understands this and will soon be a top 10 ranked school.</p>
<p>I think Vandy is a terrific school and both of my rising twin seniors to be next year will apply there (maybe ED), but I think you discount the status of some of the “Old Ivy’s” compared to Vanderbilt. Per Parchment comparisons, 78% choose UPenn over Vandy, 63% choose Cornell, 60% choose MIT and Hopkins, while Vandy is a little higher than Georgetown (46% to GU). This is hardly slipping by these schools vis a vie Vandy. </p>
<p>What Vandy has done is focus admissions almost exclusively on SATs, which is how its SAT scores are now so high (higher than median for Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Duke etc). These other schools are secure with their status and thus consider more than SAT in evaluating students. It will be interesting to see if Vandy’s focus on the SATs changes the character of the school. </p>
<p>As noted in other posts, Vandy is known nationally as good in everything, but not extra special in any one category (ala pre med Hopkins, math/science MIT, Cornell, and Duke, SFS GU, or business Penn). Until Vandy develops its niche so that when people think of an academic area they almost reflexively think of Vandy, the school’s reputation will lag behind the new and old Ivy’s.</p>
<p>VU Press Release 9-13-11: “Vanderbilt University was named the 17th best national university in the United States by U.S. News & World Report, the third consecutive year it has held that position.” </p>
<p>This is hardly skyrocketing up the rankings, unlike for example Chicago, which jumped from 9 to 5 in one year shortly after it introduced the common app. Unlike Vandy, Chicago is also known for excellence in particular academic areas such as math/science and the core. Of course, the one program at Vandy that does stand out above the crowd is Peabody, but this does not contribute substantially to Vandy’s national reputation because few of its peers have education schools.</p>
<p>mucksdog: There are those who think that SAT/ACT are the single most objective criteria for intellectual promise. Grades are a joke, varying hugely among the thousands of high schools, with zero standardization of quality. SAT/ACT plus character references and TRUE extracurricular achievements should be the main selection criteria. Not just cutesy activities to pad one’s CV.
There are certainly students who have extraordinary talent outside of academics. Sadly, the majority of “well rounded” students accomplish nothing of note outside the classroom in college, and achieve nothing spectacular after college because of being “well rounded”. There are only the rare students whose non-academic talent really matters during or after college. Most of the time it is merely a gimmick to get IN to a great school. I believe selection should be based on:
- Highest standardized scores
2.Excellent character references
3.Proven, meaningful, sustained non academic activities, e.g. voluntary work, unusual talent in music etc.
4.Exceptional sports ability, enough to make a difference at the collegiate level
5.High grades - Convincing personal statement. Brief and to the point. Not a fanciful, contrived, stilted, invented, or ghost written “essay”. As it is, there are scant safeguards against these types of gimmicky essays, which try oh so hard to be clever, artistic, amusing, engaging etc., and have ZERO correlation with a students college or later performance.
I say “bully” to Vanderbilt fore selecting the highest scoring students.
Is there ANY evidence that schools who posture that they have a “holistic” selection policy are producing a better graduate just because they were “holistic”??? In reality, consideration of other, subjective criteria merely empowers AdComs. to indulge in their own arbitrary powers. There are scads of examples of real travesties in admission to top colleges where brilliant students are denied, and ordinary students get in because of some subjective decision made by the selection committee. I think that is nonsense. Imagine some “reader” hired for the admission season weeding out a brilliant student because he did not like the essay!!! Imagine the chaotic lack of uniformity even within the same college’s AdCom readers, let alone between different schools. It is ridiculous. The ONLY nationally comparable measure is SAT/ACT.
That should NOT be the sole criterion. But high scores, decent grades, and high character is ALL you need. That, plus some students with EXCEPTIONAL athletic/artistic/literary or other talent. Not the gimmicky, manufactured “achievements” which are used to support a claim of “well rounded”.
I am all for giving high importanne to high scores, although I agree there should be other criteria also.</p>
<p>Muckdog: Yes, Vanderbilt students have high test scores, but Vanderbilt students are more than smart “high test score” kids. They work hard as well. The average class rank for excepted students this year was the top 2.7% of their class. Most were involved in significant leadership positions in their school. Most had community service involvement above the level of club or group member. Their athletic dept. is part of the SEC, the best college athletic conference in the world. The basketball team won the SEC tournament this year and their baseball team is often ranked among the best in the country. They attract top musicians and artists. Vandy offers scholarships to students in community service leadership positions. They are a leading research university as well and attract students with research experience.<br>
Yes, Vandy students are smart, tallented and hard working. Their students have excelled in and outside of the classroom.</p>
<p>I am just speculating, but I suspect that the adcoms at many elite schools are reluctant to depend too heavily on test scores because of the fear that they will be deluged with applications from high-scoring Asian kids and will end up with a higher percentage of Asian admits than they are comfortable with. It seems that Vanderbilt adcoms may want more Asian applicants and more Asian admits so the recent focus on test scores has more of an upside with little downside.</p>
<p>Oliver007 and bud 123: I agree with everything in your posts. My son was disillusioned that some of the other top students at his high school were rejected by Ivy League schools in favor of students admitted on a seemingly holistic basis. He decided to apply to Vanderbilt instead because they based their admissions decisions first and foremost on academic achievements. The following quote in his congratulations letter from Vanderbilts Chancellor speaks volumes: By setting high standards for yourself and working hard to meet your academic goals, you have earned acceptance to one of the worlds most distinguished institutions of higher education. Your passion and commitment demonstrate the values we hold dear as a university. We are proud to have him become a part of such a community.</p>
<p>I think the terms “holistic” and “diversity” are code words that mean…we can and will admit anyone we want for any reason we want.</p>
<p>Let Harvard, Yale, Princeton, or any other school admit whichever student they want, but I am darn proud that Vanderbilt is looking after academically competent students first and foremost. Look at the stats. Vandy’s entering students are academically as accomplished, if not better, as Harvard. I believe Vanderbilt will soon be recognized as an academic school par excellence.</p>