<p>We are praying for this scenario to happen in son’s applications. H works for one company he applied for, and he was able to talk to a relocated HR person that many of the positions son has applied for are listed as open only because a job offer has been extended but not accepted yet. We’re hoping some of these kids do decline their offers, so son might have a chance getting a job.</p>
<p>My son is an honorable kid, and he really wants a job, any job, this summer. He’s ready to go to the local grocery store to apply as a bagger, and I’m just about ready to push him out the door to do so. I am worried, however, that if these kids who have his prospective job offers turn down those he is up for, he’ll feel committed to work for the summer as a grocery bagger, rather than a summer internship in engineering.</p>
<p>I know the OP is posting about two engineering positions, but what about when you take a “menial” job in the meantime, and then that phone call for the internship FINALLY comes?</p>
<pre><code> I believe that the best course of action is to be honest from the very beginning. For example, I just finished my first year at USC and was planning on taking summer classes at a community college. The director of the Center for Engineering Diversity pulled me aside one day and offered me a job opportunity for the summer. This is what I said, “I would certainly be interested in working for CED during the summer; however, I am also planning on enrolling in a summer course and I just want to let you know. Naturally, I need that class to lighten my load next semester and I’m simply letting you know of my plans for the summer.” The director understood and said that she would call me back. The following week, they hired me. Now that I have enrolled in the summer class, it conflicts with my work schedule and the director completely understands because I had told her about it previously.
I think that if your son is interviewed, he should be honest that he is waiting on internship and that if the internship were to be offered to him, he will take it because it is essential to his future. I am sure that the interviewer will appreciate his honesty and will value your son more.
</code></pre>
<p>I responded to you yesterday, but for some reason my message did not appear.</p>
<p>You wrote:
"Well then, it’s a good thing that it was all a sham so that you could feel self-righteous, isn’t it?</p>
<p>By the way, nice to see that whole “honor” thing doesn’t include not lying to people offering help on a message board."</p>
<p>Were you implying I was/am the OP? I assure you, you are mistaken. I believe a Super Moderator chimed in and stated the OP was banned or some such thing.</p>
<p>I can’t help thinking “Me…me…ME!!!” as I’m reading some of these comments.</p>
<p>Holy cow! There is no ethical dilemma here! Divulging your previous employer’s secrets IS NOT a “gray area”! As professionals we are supposed to monitor ourselves. </p>
<p>What are you saying?! Now we need laws to restrict us from being unscrupulous? Are you suggesting with no specific law in place to stop you from doing something, you have zero control over yourself from doing it?!?</p>
<p>When I became an engineer, we had to take a course in engineering ethics which covered our professional responsibilities to the both the public and our companies. It was also well covered in the PE exams. Is this stuff no longer taught? </p>
<p>I’m just flabbergasted at the self-centered nature of many of these responses! Of course we should look out for ourselves, but many of you seem to believe it’s OK to do that at ANY COST to others. Any consideration for anyone or anything is completely and totally ignored.</p>
<p>Do you really want to teach our young people this?
… “ME FIRST AT ANY PRICE!!!”</p>
<p>maikai: I have a hard time understanding what your trying to say. Like when you say: “There is no ethical dilemma here! Divulging your previous employer’s secrets IS NOT a “gray area”!” are you saying that because you think it’s OK or you think its not OK. Because as far as I can understand you’re basically trying to say “there’s no ethical dilemma because I think it’s morally wrong and I’m right” which makes no sense. There are plenty of people who would argue that it’s totally fine, which is why it IS a gray area. Companies hire people from their competitors <em>all the time</em> and many would say that it’s ethically wrong to withhold information from your new company in some misguided attempt to help your previous employer to whom you not only have absolutely no ties with now but are actively competing against. It may be cutthroat but it’s the way that business operates. To be clear, there are plenty of protections against doing real damage in the form of non-disclosure agreements and laws against disclosing corporate trade secrets.</p>
<p>Just so you know, I’m simply throwing this stuff out there, I’m not taking sides on any of it. I was just using the above topic to contrast what I think is true ethical dilemma in business with what I think is a relative non-issue like finding a job while you just got another one, eg. the topic of this thread.</p>
I was implying that because (a) the OP got in trouble for having more than one account, (b) was not explicitly stated as banned (it was only noted in the thread that this was a possibility), and (c) your tone matched that of the post-reveal OP. If that is NOT the case, I apologize for condemning you for the OP’s actions.</p>
<p>
First, no one here is claiming that it should be ALL about “me”, but what is wrong with including your own interests in deciding what to do? This is business, not a romance - if I act in a completely selfless manner then the only way I survive is by the good graces of my employer. In my experience, employers are relatively low on good graces.</p>
<p>Second, no one here is denying that there are not consequences to our actions. If you renege on a particular deal, that has a negative consequence to your reputation, but that does not mean that the end result is a net negative. You have to play your own hand.</p>
<p>Third, I have stated before that I do not consider the OP’s proposed job change to be a negative for EITHER party unless the alternative is a mandated 4+ year term of employment. Company A initially spends a certain amount of money recruiting someone. In the hypothetical case we have discussed, that money is spent no matter what. BUT, they will from that point spend ADDITIONAL money on that individual for roughly the next two years as they train them to competency as an engineer, and it will take ANOTHER two years for the profit from that engineer to bring the total employment cost back up to zero.</p>
<p>Simplified, this means that an employee who signs on, works for a couple of years at a job they already know is not the one that they wanted (assuming no change in productivity due to disappointment in missing dream job), and then leaves to go somewhere else is a bigger financial hit than the employee who signs on but bails before ever working a day.</p>
<p>So the only way the company really loses is if this wishy-washy individual was really going to stay for at least 4 years. And from the OP’s original BS description, that did NOT look like it was going to happen.</p>
<p>Sorry I’m a little late, but it is an internship. Haven’t started it yet (next week), but I still wish I was doing the second one. Its immensely closer (15 min vs 50 min) and its in a better area (Annapolis vs DC)</p>
Who is actually advocating this? Is someone saying “Burn down company A’s offices so that jumping to company B is easier?” No!</p>
<p>What people are saying is that if the benefit to YOU is large and the cost to the COMPANY is small (or, as I have been pointing out, nonexistent), then it makes sense to take the option that is best for you. I should point out that, barring small privately-owned companies, employers not only will NOT hesitate to throw you under the train for an advantage, they can actually be sued into nonexistence by their shareholders for not doing so!</p>
<p>I work in the semiconductor sector (>30 years) and I can tell you it is NOT OK to divulge secrets from your previous employer to your new employer. I’ve worked at many major manufacturers over the years. Not only is it an actionable offense, but once word of your character gets out, you won’t find many places that will have you. You’ve essentially told your whole industry that you will sell them out for a handful of coins. </p>
<p>Of course you can share skills obtained from everywhere you worked previously, but if you have secrets other than your talents, they are NOT to be shared.</p>
<p>This is not a gray area at all. Far, far from it! Much time was spent on this topic when I went to school, it is a key area of study if you took an FE or PE exam and it is a tenet of the profession.</p>
<p>To hear another engineer suggest otherwise is mind-blowing.</p>
<p>Dreburden,</p>
<p>I’m not on a high horse. I’m simply repeating the accepted values of my profession. It just seems like I’m up very high while surrounded by such low moral and ethical values. We can call it “Relativity of Morality.”</p>
<p>Enough lawmakers in California believe that banning non-compete clauses is fine, so there must be two sides to this story. I’m very curious as to what the thought process is in regards to this.</p>
<p>Banning non-compete clauses is a good thing. A company shouldn’t be able to limit one’s ability to find gainful employment.</p>
<p>What we are talking about here goes far beyond a non-compete clause. What it seems AncientGammoner is implying when he says an employee can go to his former employer’s bitter competitor goes beyond a non-compete clause. I believe he is implying an engineer is free to divulge closely held intellectual property, belonging to his previous employer.</p>
<p>Forgetting about the ethics of the dilemma momentarily, it is basically a roll of the dice. Backing out of an offer will basically nullify any further opportunity to work with anyone involved with the offer of the company you backed out on. Furthermore, it could hinder an offer from people who know those people. Don’t make a decision your career can’t handle. If you feel your career can handle backing out on an offer, go for it, if not, don’t.</p>
<p>How do you determine what is ethical (and professional)? What if you can’t find any other job and you are destitute (i.e. need money to pay for mom’s surgery)? What makes a person virtuous? Not law, culture. Dignity, ego? </p>
This is why companies generally delineate trade secrets and the like - many trade secrets are inherently tied to the methods and processes that the company teaches its engineers. It is not unethical to continue to work in the manner in which you have been trained, and in many cases this leads naturally to something that the company would want secret. This is the gray area - even without intentionally betraying company secrets, a guy who develops product X for company A is likely to develop future products that bear some resemblance to product X no matter what company he works for. And this is why patents and trade secrets and proprietary information exist - to try to let you KNOW without guessing what you can and cannot tell some other company.</p>
I never said anything about breaking the law, that’s clearly NOT a gray area, but there are plenty of actions that are completely legal but ethically questionable. I do find it rather strange how personally you’re taking this discussion, and that you seem to think I’m actually advocating anything, when all we’re doing is debating ethics.</p>
<p>I am curious, what did they say in your ethics training about being hired by competitor? If you have intimate knowledge of your previous employers business practices (and it’s knowledge that is NOT covered by a non-disclosure agreement) what did they say about using your knowledge to help your new employer?</p>