Accepted a job offer from one company and then got an interview with another one?

College Majors Engineering Majors
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<p>cosmicfish,</p>

<p>That was the closest you came to you and me agreeing.</p>

<p>The trouble I had with your logic is it is all too convenient. You choose the context to suit your position and ignore others that don’t.</p>

<p>For the OP’s hypothetical event, you ignored the character of the young engineer and his decision making process and only focus on issues starting after the second acceptance… as if nothing happened previously.</p>

<p>My boyfriend/girlfriend analogy may not entirely apply, but it’s useful to make a point. If a boy agrees to be exclusive with a girl, then cheats on the very night of that agreement, you would say it’s a good thing, because his girlfriend wasn’t “the one” for him. If they would have stayed together, he would only have wasted her time.</p>

<p>I, on the other hand, address the lack of character and decision making by the boy in the events leading up to his broken promise and infidelity. After that point, once it is clear this is a boy lacking character, then I would agree it was a good thing, but for different reasons than you. I would say the girl dodged a bullet. It was good for the girl not to be involved with such a low caliber individual. </p>

<p>If the young engineer were my son, I would have advised him to contact company B after receiving the offer from company A. Company B could only appreciate this communication. It may even make the young engineer more attractive to company B. But if company B said they could not interview him, then sign with company A and never give company B another thought. I do not subscribe to the idea there is a “dream job” available for a still-wet-behind-the-ears engineer. They have too much to learn. I think it rare for an engineer to find a long term home on his first assignment… unless that engineer has no desire grow and build his worth as a professional.</p>

<p>Now we are talking about disclosing company secrets to our next employer. I’ll concede there is gray, but the gray is quite small in my mind… almost not mentionable. The skills I acquire throughout my career are mine. The way I do things is mine. My thought process is mine. So your implication that my circuits will be similar or sharing some characteristics of circuits I’ve designed in the past for other employers is true. This is what you are calling gray and for me to argue it is splitting hairs. We’ll call that gray, although I see nothing wrong with it, nor do I see this being outside the expectations of any employer.</p>

<p>On the other hand, patents and such do not even begin to offer adequate delineation between what should be treated as secret and not. The secrets one must keep from consequent employers range from specialty circuits which were intentionally not patented (patents require full disclosure to the world) to customer lists, supplier lists, and all kinds and types of sensitive data.</p>

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<p>AncientGammoner,</p>

<p>What you initially said was this: </p>

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<p>Let me pull out the operative sentence which caused me to protest.</p>

<p>“…take your knowledge and expertise of Company A’s operations to their most bitter rival…”</p>

<p>Taking your accumulated skill set to a new employer and taking “your knowledge and expertise of Company A’s operations” are two very different things.</p>

<p>If you’ve reconsidered and are now modifying position, fine. I do that all the time. I always reserve the right to be wrong and often use it. But please don’t pee on my leg and tell me it was just rain.</p>

<p>I am passionate about this topic because I feel young engineers are reading this. I can’t/won’t let the unscrupulous advice I’ve read in this thread stand uncontested. I have a Junior in High School. He reads these threads. I owe it to him to stand up and do the right thing… to not sit idly by while an injustice is being performed… to practice what I’ve been advising him all these years.</p>

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<p>mailkai: How can I “reconsider” or “modify my position” when I clearly stated I have no position and I’m simply posing the dilemma that some people face. And I notice you didn’t actually answer the question I asked, so I’ll pose it again more clearly: Let’s say you’re fired from your employer, then you get a job at a competitor, what amount of information is “unethical” to give to your new employer assuming that you are NOT breaking any laws by divulging said information? All the information you can divulge without breaking the law? No information? I’m just interested to hear why you think the situation is so clear cut, when I can see arguments both ways.</p>

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<p>AncientGammoner,</p>

<p>Yeah, OK, it’s rain. :-/</p>

<p>I think I’ve been pretty clear in my posts. </p>

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<p>How much more specific would you like me to be? </p>

<p>Perhaps you see situations as gray because you fail to apply different contexts and references to the situations. Once you decide that ethical behavior would be perceived as ethical by everyone involved, the lines become easier to see.</p>

<p>…and when it doubt, err to labeling it “unethical.”</p>

<p>Since I see most things as fairly clear cut and you see them as gray, perhaps you could share some “gray” examples; I’ll set you straight. ;-)</p>

<p>And with regards to the “law”—
The “law” does not comprehensively cover our ethical responsibilities as engineering professionals, nor should it.</p>

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<p>

I did ignore everything previous simply because to me that is a separate issue. The main issue is what can this hypothetical individual do NOW, and without a time machine they will receive no benefit from suggestions on what they SHOULD have done. If someone hands me a shattered vase I can neither tell them to go back and unbreak it nor restore it to as-new condition - all I can do is make the best vase I can with what is left.</p>

<p>For what it is worth, I agree with your suggestion as to what he SHOULD have done, and agree that it is good advice for ACTUAL people who get into similar positions prior to digging themselves into a hole. This is essentially what I did in securing my first engioneering job - I applied to several companies and several grad schools, and when the LESS desirable options responded first, I contacted them and asked for more time and contacted the better olptions and asked them for more haste. I received favorable answer from all parties and had the time I needed to select the best option.</p>

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He would have also have wasted his OWN time. While I agree that character and the ability to make good decisions are important, I do not think that sticking with obviously BAD decisions is a better path then acknowledging the mistake. Nor would I condemn the boy as an inherently bad individual for making the mistake - people make mistakes, it happens.</p>

<p>I do not, however, think that romance is a good analogy for employment in any circumstances. The dynamics and relationships involved are completely different for all but a few people who are, ahem, married to their work.</p>

<p>

In the hypothetical circumstance described, your son failed to ask your advice, and made the bad call already. You are advising him on what to do if he ever comes across this scenario in the future, not telling him what he should do about his current problem other than “stick with it”, which is advice I do not categorically agree with. Sometimes “sticking with it” just damages everyone involved, and I do not consider the value of “your word” to always exceed the amount of that damage.</p>

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Consider me somewhat of an exception then. I used to be a technician, then got my degree at 30. While this is not my first employer it is my first professional position and after 6 years it remains my “dream job”. And please do not think that I had a ton of experience with engineering as a technician - I had very little contact with engineering staff in ANY of my previous technical jobs.</p>

<p>Perhaps this is why I sympathize with the hypothetical poster - if I had made his same mistake and then listened to your advice I would probably be working in a soul-crushing job doing safety checks (my first offer), hoping to find a chance to get my MS (which they supported only for certain people) and a shot at the design jobs that they said I was not qualified for. Instead I am in a company that had me in a design job 6 months after I started, allowed me to shadow some of our top engineers, paid for my MS and gave me time off for classes, and then sent me to get a PhD at one of the top engineering schools in the country.</p>

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I agree!</p>

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I have yet to see this type of data that is not in some way specifically marked as such by the company. My employer requires that all such data is marked as Proprietary, employees sign agreements to not disclose said data, and I would consider it unethical and justification for a lawsuit should they do so. I have never seen companies take information that was proprietary and not mark it as such, simply because new engineers (and other professionals) are not going to possess the knowledge of standards in their fields that would generally allow them to make that distinction! If I see an equation or process or design that is unmarked, I have no way of knowing if it is common across the industry, licensed from someone else, or a proprietary creation of my employer, and if I have to make that call 2 years later while working elsewhere… I might make an honest mistake!</p>

<p>In short, I would consider the situation where an engineer has a “gray area” in terms of actual data he can disclose to be a major failing of his employer.</p>

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<p>cosmicfish,</p>

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<p>So… no lesson about what was done wrong? No lesson for the next time? The OP also asked if his actions were unethical. In my mind they were… and I stated so.</p>

<p>I believe the more important thing to do is guide the young man to a path of honesty, honor, and service. These are the things that will build his worth as a professional… as well as his net worth.</p>

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<p>There is the “me-me-me” again. You are implying his actions are justified by his own needs. This is not how I see the world. Our needs do not eclipse or trump the needs of others. They must live in harmony with the needs of others.</p>

<p>Also, you assume there was no chance for a relationship (with company A or the girl). I don’t see it that way either. Failure is not a foregone conclusion. We have no idea what is in store for us around the next corner. I met my wife bowling, of all things. I never bowled in my life. Friends from work begged me to be their fourth for only three weeks, then they could keep their team of three, as per league rules. We bowled against my future wife’s team the first night. I haven’t bowled since.</p>

<p>Fate wanted me in that bowling alley. Fate might want the young engineer in company A and company B could be a hell-hole in actuality. </p>

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<p>But in this hypothetical situation, he came to me after the second interview. There is still time to fix it. </p>

<p>Again, you assume disaster and mayhem if the second offer is refused. I don’t. This is one of our fundamental disagreements.</p>

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<p>OK, you’re an exception. My advice stands. Just because one guy kicked a field goal from his own 5 yard line on first down doesn’t change my general advice to move the ball down the field a bunch more before deciding to kick.</p>

<p>And I’m not even sure you’re an exception. You already had a lot of work experience and the maturity that comes with age. I’m talking about a wet-behind-ears newly minted engineer.</p>

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<p>I somewhat agree. My employment agreements/contracts, which have all been CA based, contain “non-disclosure” and/or “trusted agent” clauses. </p>

<p>The part I’ll disagree with is the idea that each and every piece of sensitive information I obtained over years of working at these places were specifically called out in the contract. It would be impossible. I hadn’t come up with some of them yet. :wink: </p>

<p>In my contracts, it was/is understood that I know what is sensitive and what is not… and I do. Some examples are called out (“including, but not limited to…”), but nothing nearly resembling a comprehensive list.</p>