<p>Thanks soozievt for that clarification. I will be sure and put U of Penn on our list of schools to visit when we are there next month and add it to my new research list. Of course as you said, when my s settles on his degree path, the process will simplify a bit. He may come home from BTP and say engineering is off or on hold until later. If so, hopefully I will be knowledgeable about all of these BFA programs and be prepared for their intensity as we proceed for the visits and the application/audition process.</p>
<p>Hoosier mom, Elon doesn't offer a three year engineering degree. It is a five year program, with the first three completed at Elon & the last two at another college:
[quote]
With Elon's dual-degree engineering program, students earn two degrees: a bachelor's degree in one of five concentrations from Elon and a bachelor's degree in engineering from an engineering school. Students spend the first three years at Elon and approximately two more years at an engineering school in this program. Elon is presently partnering with the engineering schools at North Carolina State University, Georgia Tech, Virginia Tech, Columbia University, Notre Dame University, Washington University in St. Louis, University of South Carolina and North Carolina A&T State University.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I feel like I am beating a dead horse, but an engineering curriculum has very little room for anything but the specific degree requirements.</p>
<p>Speaking of beating a dead horse? Then why do these colleges offer such a program? Has none of this been tested or proven. I understand not trying to do anything in conjuction with a BFA (clearly discussed on cc and points well taken), but now I hear you saying the same about an engineering degree.</p>
<p>Michigan</a> Engineering | Undergraduate Degree Options</p>
<p>Am I on the wrong forum on CC? Do I need to be chatting with parents and students in the engineering field and not MT? I am getting weary with finding all of these links for dual degree programs between engineering and music and theatre programs and being told that it can't be done or shouldn't be attempted. Sorry if my frustration is rearing it's nasty head, but I feel like I am alone in this process and am talking about something that is a completely foreign concept. Anybody have any ideas of where to go with this? I feel like I am waisting everybody's time talking about a subject that does not apply. Should I be on the "engineering majors" forum?</p>
<p>Here it is working back the other way from the MT site instead of the engineering site.</p>
<p>UM</a> School of Music, Theatre & Dance - Department of Musical Theatre - Degree Programs</p>
<p>UM</a> School of Music, Theatre & Dance - Dual Degree Programs</p>
<p>This is only one school, so as I said. Do I need to be on a different forum?</p>
<p>Just wanted to chime in. As many have said, the process and training at various schools differs from school to school. In general, better information would be able to be offered if you suggested some of the schools you might apply to. The best thing to do is ask direct questions directly to the schools you are interested in. Nothing new here that hasn't already been offered. I will offer that regardless of the training level at one's studio or performing arts high school, many programs have an actual coarse of study designed in various dance disciplines that methodically address the development of various styles of dance. This might include history, placement, balance, and embrace a philosophy of movement that is very often missed in the simple patterns across the floor or various steps and tricks that is offered by all too many training programs. That is perhaps why a degree program might insist of the progression of courses they recommend/require. Alternately, you may find that many programs also evaluate a students dance skills, and then place them in the appropriate class levels.</p>
<p>In any case, good luck to you in your joureny.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I understand not trying to do anything in conjuction with a BFA (clearly discussed on cc and points well taken), but now I hear you saying the same about an engineering degree.
[/quote]
I was responding to the post about a three year engineering degree at Elon. It's actually a five year degree. </p>
<p>Depending on the college, with a NON MT BFA it may be possible to work in an engineering degree. (That is what Michigan's site was offering. Over 5+ years, though.) You have been talking abnout MT, however. Look at any engineering curriculum, check out the rigid availability of the course requirements, and you will see how little time is available to fit in artsy courses, which often meet for more hours than the credit hours would indicate. And often these courses are not open to non majors. </p>
<p>The Elon dual degree program is designed as a five year program. How could a musical theater kid complete his MT requirements if he is not on campus?</p>
<p>I think your initial misunderstanding was in assuming that a dual degree program mixing engineering with some type of arts/humanities program would include MT. It simply can't. Other posters have spoken about how many classroom hours their kids must put in (much more than credit hours) and the packed evenings & weekends of rehearsals, etc. I don't have a kid in MT yet. But I take them at their word. I did attend an engineering school & am married to an engeineer. I know that an engineering schedule is very rigid. It's not like a humanities major, where you can fill a social studies requirment from a selection of 50+ courses. You must take specific courses in all engineering disciplines, such as discrete mathematics, or thermodynamics. No flexibility. Meaning no flexibility in either choice of course, & very little in timing of courses. Elon is acknowledging this by structuting a NON MT/engineering dual degree program over five years. An environmental science degree might work. But not a MT/engineering combo.</p>
<p>OK, finally an answer from the school! U of Mich has had the dual degree program for many years and it has been tested and proven. Indeed it does take 5+ years to do the BFA in MT and a degree in Engineering, but it has been done and they have students in the dual degree program with the BFA in MT. Whew! So, as soozievt has says, these programs may be far and few in between but I am not completely delirious! It will limit the options if my s insists on a dual degree, but a least when he challenges me on it, I finally have a concrete answer :)</p>
<p>Just thought I would chime in that it is Penn State in State College that has the excellent engineering school- one of the top undergraduate programs in the country- and a very strong theater dep't. so do check it out.</p>
<p>Thank you. It is on our circle tour when we visit next month.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Am I on the wrong forum on CC? Do I need to be chatting with parents and students in the engineering field and not MT? I am getting weary with finding all of these links for dual degree programs between engineering and music and theatre programs and being told that it can't be done or shouldn't be attempted. Sorry if my frustration is rearing it's nasty head, but I feel like I am alone in this process and am talking about something that is a completely foreign concept. Anybody have any ideas of where to go with this? I feel like I am waisting everybody's time talking about a subject that does not apply. Should I be on the "engineering majors" forum?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>You are not on the wrong forum. However, if your son wishes to pursue an engineering degree, it would make sense to ALSO read the engineering forum.</p>
<p>I feel like I am being quite repetitive but you are saying that you are finding programs that combine engineering with theater or music. I am saying that an engineering degree might be able to be combined with a BA in Music or a BA in Theater. That is not unusual. What some of us are trying to emphasize is the combo between Engineering AND a BACHELORS OF FINE ARTS DEGREE IN MUSICAL THEATER. BOTH of those specific degree programs are NOT normal college majors in terms of required courses spelled out year by year, hours involved, percentage of total college courses involved, etc. It is that combo that is being questioned and not combining engineering with music/theater or a combing a BFA in MT with a BA in Environmental Science. Even those combos are difficult and not doable at every school but those are possible at some schools. It is rare to see an Engineering degree combined with a BFA in MT and I encourage you to talk to an administrator in the BFA in MT program directly to ask about how realistic that combo is. Even if you find such an option, there will not be many schools that have it and so other degree options or combos will need to be added to the list (not to mention that UMich's BFA in MT is very difficult to get into itself). I also would talk directly to current students in the BFA in MT programs and ask them what they think. I would not direct these questions to admissions offices.</p>
<p>Soozie brings up an excellent point that should not be overlooked. Initially we investigated schools which crossed and were very good in both areas of interest. Our (wrong) assumption was if a school had an excellent BFA MT department that meant that she would have access to superior acting, vocal and dance resources pursuing a BA at that school. This turned out to not be true. Those excellent resources that made the BFA MT superior were reserved only for the BFA students and the BA students were taught by totally different faculty members and were not in the same classes. </p>
<p>That is what led us to IU actually. Anyone can sign up for the same dance classes at Jacobs as the BFA MTs take the first year. There are special MT workshops that the BFA MTs take later but someone with a BA Theatre can audition for - but they are not guaranteed entry. A BA in any discipline can take private voice lessons - not from the BFA MT teachers but again they are at Jacobs and very good resources. The same is true of acting classes although they do have separate acting classes for major and non-major theatre students and the BFA MT students take these same classes. </p>
<p>My D fully expected to sign up for classes in both her areas of interest pursuing a double major. But the reality was you only have so many hours in a day and can only take so many credits. Laying out a 4 or even 5 yr plan it looks extremely difficult to be trained FULLY in both areas. And this is in a 2nd major that is much less demanding than engineering. This is also true despite having college and AP credits that fulfill many of the general graduation requirements. </p>
<p>It's wonderful when you know what you want to be when you grow up. Although I had multiple careers, I knew my passion since I was about 7 yrs old. I've always thought that college for most was for exploring options and really discovering the major. I think I was the exception not the rule - as evidenced by the average number of major changes. Many people enter college unable to conceive of doing anything but MT or theatre but faced with the demands of the curriculum decide to drop it. Or perhaps it's just the age they are at constantly growing, changing, learning and being exposed to new areas. </p>
<p>In my D's case the first semester or year she will be pursuing a schedule almost identical to the BFA MT. She will try it on for size because this is her #1 dream and passion - right now. If she changes her mind she is at a college that offers excellent resources in her 2nd area of interest as well as many others. This was her "fit" in a college. I fully expect at one point she will narrow her focus and energy to just one major. </p>
<p>The other direction she could have gone is to pursue the BA in the 2nd area and keep up training in the 3 MT areas drawing on the excellent resources at IU - with any available open class spots. And there lies the rub - fitting it all in. I think it is probably much easier to double major or even minor in similar disciplines that may overlap such as theatre, music and dance then to pursue a double major in a totally different discipline.</p>
<p>I've been away for awhile seeing my son in summerstock theatre and having family vacation.</p>
<p>I'm having a hard time understanding how this thread went from a question about dance in BFA MTs to talking about engineering with MT, which I know was discussed on another thread and which I think would be very difficult to do with almost any BFA program. Maybe you all should consider an engineering major and doing theatre on the side as a hobby. Engineering often pays better for a steady living!</p>
<p>Back to the original question, Elon does a great job allowing MT students to dance at their level. I believe that students are placed into appropriate levels coming in and that advanced dancers skip the beginning classes. Students can also add dance classes as electives if they are in the MT or dance programs. My son usually takes 20 or more hours a semester of classes, and he usually has several dance classes, allowing him to dance several hours each day.</p>
<p>We are so proud that our son seems to be a very advanced dancer in his summerstock work. Elon has done a great job with him in all areas, including dance. He did not go into Elon as an advanced dancer, but he has worked very hard. We also think he's getting great training in voice and acting.</p>
<p>This is just a general observation about some dual-degree programs and double majoring...especially with a music and or theatre major combined with another discipline.</p>
<p>It is one thing for a school to say that they offer joint programs. They may. However, it is up to you as a wise consumer to find out the real facts about the number of students who actually have been successful at completing such a program.</p>
<p>You may be surprised at the low number of students who have been successful. Often the work load is next to impossible and people burn out. And even more frequently, the scheduling of dual programs that each have specific classes in a sequence is all by impossible.</p>
<p>After some digging, we found out that a joint program with Julliard and Barnard had about 2 people successfully complete it in about the 6 years the head of the music program had been at Barnard. And yet the program comes up frequently in literature about the school and even on CC. </p>
<p>Be wary and speak to people who are really involved with such programs!</p>
<p>A friend of mine is working with one of her current students in finalizing his college list and he happens to also be a student who is interested in a possible dual degree, or a likely dual major. She has corresponded with Kathy Unlu at Michigan and the information that she has received has been that although a dual major is possible, it is definitely more rigorous. To quote her "We have several MT majors pursuing dual degrees with LSA at the moment, but as far as I know, no engineering duals." All dual degrees take approximately 5 years (which can also mean >5). </p>
<p>When asked how many students have been able to accomplish this, the reply was "There are usually 2-3 students of each entering class of about 18-20 students per year who embark on a dual degree. It's quite common for other MTs to either add a dual degree or dual major through the course of their studies, and I'm sure other MTs may wish to drop a dual degree or dual major through their stay at the UM." Not exactly a definitive answer as to how often this path is successful, and this is not even the engineering dual.</p>
<p>A request was made to possibly be put in touch with a current student who is doing this and the request was refused. They will not put current students in touch with prospective students. My advice, again, would be for interested students to make their own attempts to make contact with Michigan students via Facebook, livejournal, youtube and communicate directly.</p>
<p>About double-majoring as an MT at UMich - am glad that someone called and talked to Kathy U. in the office to find out the feasibility of this. The 2-3 number that she gave for each class, however, is actually high. This might be the number of students who think/inquire about double-majoring - but not the number of students who actually do it. There are no double majors in my D's second year class, none in the third year class (there was one and he changed his mind) and none, that she knows of, in the senior class. There were three double majors in the class that just graduated. One student doubled in Engish and was able to finish in four years. The other two are now staying on for their fifth year. One of these students is doubling in Voice and the other in English. </p>
<p>So, there really are not many current students to talk to about double-majoring. Am sure those few students, however, would be happy to share their experiences - and I agree with alwaysamom to try to connect with current students online. And if you visit UMich or audition there, talk to MT students and let them know that you'd like to connect with someone with firsthand experience in double majoring.</p>
<p>To alwaysamom (and anyone else who may be interested), I will be a freshman at UM in a couple weeks (24 days to be exact, not like I'm counting or anything :) ) and am more than happy to answer questions or connect anyone to students in the department who can better answer them. PM me or send me an e-mail.</p>