ACT vs. SAT... again

Parents Forum
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<p>
[quote]
It worked for her, since she got into her most-desired reaches.... but I honestly think in hindsight that all of the strategizing was wasted. She also made a strategic decision not to submit her very poor SAT scores, only to discover after being admitted that the college had them on file -- her g.c. must have sent them with the midyear transcript. So basically, that which she feared - the disclosure of terrible scores -- happened without making much of a difference.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Calmom, forgive me for using your statement as Exhibit A for a theory I have tried to share many times. </p>

<p>As it applies to almost everything, students and families have to speculate about many elements of the admissions. Through hundreds of examples, some of the disclosures help us reaching a consensus about this most arcane process. However, I believe that, when it comes to SAT scores, the students AND the colleges share a common objective: the ability to report the HIGHEST composite score. Except for a handful of schools who might have discovered that the USNews rankings can ge maximized by reporting LOWER SAT scores to boost their expected graduation rates, schools find it to their benefit to appear as competitive as possible. </p>

<p>It is for this reason that I believe that the schools recommend multiple sittings and do rarely -if ever- penalize anyone for dedicating a few extra Saturdays to the art of bubbling litle ovals and fight boredom, hunger, thirst, and sleepiness. It has always been my contention that the analysis of SAT/ACT/SAT2 scores by schools does not amount to a whole lot, except for the mechanical transfer to a computerized score sheet that lists the BEST scores according to the school criteria. While I do not doubt that the complete information is available in the file, I strongly believe that the highest and best scores are the only thing that matters. </p>

<p>So, test as much as your heart desires! Boy, must Gaston love me!</p>

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<p>xiggi:</p>

<p>while I agree in concept, just as the OP mentioned a book, I think it was the "Gatekeepers" that indicated that THAT school averaged test scores after three tries; but, of course, that 'data' is now several years old.</p>

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<p>I hate to state the obvious but until 2 to 3 years ago hardly anyone on the east coast took the ACT. So when the eastcoast colleges stats indicate very few kids submitted the ACT, its based on the fact that the kids here did not take the test.
I can tell you that guidance counselors on Long Island are now encouraging kids to take both tests unless you are truly satisfied with the initial score. D #1 's HS class of 2004 was never encouraged to take ACT by her HS. D # 2 (Same HS) Class of 2006 was very much encouraged to take both tests. Alot has changed on Long Island (and I suspect much of the east coast) in the past two years.
Enough overanalyzing- go with the test that is best for your kid.</p>

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<p>"xiggi: while I agree in concept, just as the OP mentioned a book, I think it was the "Gatekeepers" that indicated that THAT school averaged test scores after three tries; but, of course, that 'data' is now several years old."</p>

<p>BB, inasmuch as it would be impossible to know what happens with absolute certainty at the 4000 US colleges, I can only refer to the "challenge" I presented on CC a couple of times. About every time we discussed score averaging, I asked for anyone to post verifiable information if such cases ... nobody ever did! Regardless of the unscientific nature of CC collective wisdom, it is fair to assume that "averaging" schools" would represent a very, small number. </p>

<p>The Gatekeepers story is about Wesleyan. Is this the "THAT" school you mention?</p>

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<p>yes, it was Wes. Moreover, assuming Steinberg is not writing falsehoods, Wes is on record for averaging; but, again, old data point.....</p>

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<p>I think the %-tile tables indicate the conversion charts are very suspect and hurt the ACT taker significantly when their scores are compared to SAT scores. Perhaps this is why most schools have a lower than expected ACT average than if you just converted the avg. SAT to an ACT average using the tables.</p>

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<p>barrons:</p>

<p>that's a logical conclusion, but as I noted previously, two University systems indepently validated the concordance table as statistically valid; indeed, the UC's take the ACT score and immediately translate it into a corresponding SAT score and put the SAT score on the applicant's file jacket. Thus, my suggestion for one of our Admissions posters to add some real insight on what really goes on behind closed doors.</p>

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<p>I do note that the average ACT at UCLA was about 26 and the average SAT was about 1280 last time I checked. Something is funny.</p>

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<p>yup. for the UCLA class of '05, the average ACT of acceptees at 28 (SAT equivalent of 1270), and the SAT is 1350.</p>

<p>bw: Subject Tests were then counted twice as heavily as the SAT/ACT....</p>

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<p>Don't try to compare the ACT vs. SAT for the UC system, because UC has a formula that reweights the ACT to change the value of the composite -- so basically UC is never looking at the composite as it is reported -- and UC also requires 2 subject tests with or without the ACT.
[quote]
The University takes your highest math, reading, science and combined English/writing score from a single sitting and converts them to equivalent SAT scores (see the translation table at right). To give the ACT writing component equal weight to the SAT writing exam, the University multiplies the sum of your converted math, reading and science scores by two-thirds, then adds the converted English/writing score.

[/quote]
Source: <a href="http://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/admissions/undergrad_adm/paths_to_adm/freshman/scholarship_reqs.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/admissions/undergrad_adm/paths_to_adm/freshman/scholarship_reqs.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>I am sorry if this is old, rehashed info., but I could really use your help.</p>

<p>Here's the situation:</p>

<p>DS (a rising senior) took PSAT last year and scored 232. So even though we are in ACT country, he went ahead and took the SAT for purpose of National Merit Scholar program.</p>

<p>He scored: CR 730, M 800, WR 770 Total 2300</p>

<p>Then he took the ACT and scored Sci 35, Math 34, English 36, Reading 36, Composite 35</p>

<p>So as we approach September and college applications, which test should he report, or should he report both? My understanding is that the ACT score is slightly better, but if we don't report the SAT is that strange in light of National Merit Semi-Finalist status?</p>

<p>Help!!!</p>

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<p>I would report both, as both are excellent and they will note that and then take the higher!</p>

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<p>My S took both and did much better on the ACT. His SAT's were around 1350 (before writing was required). He even prepped for it. He took the ACT cold and did amazing and got into almost every school he applied to with merit. His grades were much more in line with his ACT then his SAT. Most schools did not require SAT II scores if you submitted the ACT. The standardized tests taken in our area Stanford 9's I believe are supposedly more in line with the ACT so students here seem more comfortable with the test. Although my D did about the same on both SAT and ACT.</p>

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<p>More detail on ACT vs. SAT and the UC system. </p>

<p>By way of illustration, my daughter took the ACT twice - here's how the scores came out on the UC equivalency.</p>

<p>Test 1:
ACT Composite: 28
UC Equivalency: 1847.26</p>

<p>Test 2:
ACT Composite: 27
UC Equivalency: 1860.62</p>

<p>That is because on the retest, her science & reading scores went up by several points overall, but her English/writing score went down. This resulted in a slight drop in the ACT composite, but with the UC rescoring the 27 was worth about 12 points more than the 28. </p>

<p>Although she used ACT's for all other colleges, my d. submitted SATs only to UC, as her SAT combined score was 1930. So obviously SATs worked better for her. </p>

<p>However, she elected not to submit the SAT scores to private colleges in part because the math/CR combined was 1200, writing 730 - and the private colleges were very unclear as to whether they would consider the writing or how they would weight it. In other words, it was very possible that private colleges would completely disregard her strongest score. </p>

<p>Additionally her SAT II's were poor, in part because her semester abroad forced her into the position of taking SAT II's before completion of the underlying course. Her best 2 SAT II scores combined were 1210. Since UC's roll the scores all together in their calculations, that left her with a total UC of 3140, which is not too bad by California standards. (Averaging out to slightly under 630 per test). </p>

<p>But of course to a private college looking at the scores individually... who knows? </p>

<p>Anyway, all this illustrates another point: what may be the best choice may depend on how the individual tests break out. If you look at individual scores using UC equivalencies, it actually is very consistent: my daughter tends to score 600-640 range for most subjects, above 700 in writing, her area of strength. But when you start applying math to it, weird things happen - for example, the US News system applies percentile rankings to convert both ACT/SAT scores for purposes of college rankings, and ACT percentiles are higher than their score equivalency. That is:</p>

<p>ACT 28= SAT 1260
ACT 28 = 93%
SAT 1260= 82% </p>

<p>(I may be mistaken as to exact percentile, but the point is the same - an ACT percentile comes out higher than the SAT percentile for the SAT numerical equivalency).</p>

<p>I agree with Barrons tht this may be why so many colleges seem to have a lower than expected ACT range -- but I don't think this necessarily hurts the ACT taker if the college is using a percentile conversion. In my daughter's case, as an ACT submitter, she is in the top 10% of students; as an SAT submitter, merely the top 20% -- so if a college were to simply convert all scores to percentile rankings, the ACT taker would come out way ahead, even when scores were numerically equivalent or slightly less on the ACT. </p>

<p>And going to Xiggi's point -- if the college's main consideration is rankings then, knowing that US News uses percentile-based recalculation, the college can afford to set a lower floor for ACTs. Because when you disregard the published numerical equivalency and only look at percentiles, a 28 ACT is worth about the same as a 1360 SAT. </p>

<p>By this analysis, it would be worthwhile for SAT submitters to ALSO take and submit the ACT, even if the ACT is the same or even slightly worse, because the colleges may place more value than they let on about those percentiles. In other words, if my daughter had managed to increase her SAT scores to 1300, we might have mistakenly thought those were better than the 28 ACT and used SAT's alone --- but a 1300 equates to only 89% percentile. Not only is that 4 percentile points less than the 28 ACT, but it's also a lower decile. </p>

<p>This is all speculation of course, but it sure starts to make it look like an ACT score confers and advantage, with or without an accompanying SAT score ... no matter what college admissions counselors advise.</p>

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<p>OK, I have breaking news. I actually emailed the author with my question, and got an incredibly lovely and well thought out reply from Sally Springer. She writes that Richard Shaw was "surprisingly candid" when he made his comments back in 2004. However, apparently two years is, indeed, a very long time in the fast paced world of college admissions. </p>

<p>Dr. Springer feels that the interest and number of people submitting ACT scores has risen. She now "feels comfortable taking selective schools at their word in terms of their policy of accepting either test (and implicitly to treating them equally)." She says that at this point in time if her own child did significantly better on the ACT she would submit only the ACT "without worrying about it for a minute." So there you have it, folks, is what most of you were saying all along.</p>

<p>She also told me that she plans to update the book's website, in order to reflect changes such as this, the increasingly broad acceptance of the Common App and any future changes. Anyway, I told you I like to go to the source. Count me as convinced, once and for all!</p>

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<p>Thanks for doing this research. I'll save your message and link to it the next time this passage is mentioned.</p>

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<p>Thanks, DianeR, that would be helpful. I have to admit to feeling two ways about this. On one hand, this is a welcome option for those who feel more comfortable with the ACT format or do better on it, yet it complicates things too, leading as it inevitably will (and already has) to even more standardized test taking!</p>

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<p>Actually, I think it might lead to LESS, over time. The reason is that most colleges that require SAT II's will accept the ACT with writing in lieu of the SAT I and SAT II. As ACT gets more accepted, I think more students will take it early, and if they are satisfied with their test scores -- simply stop testing. Even if not satisfied,they may realize that it is easier to retake the ACT once than to have to take the SAT and SAT II's at a separate sitting. </p>

<p>I think I posted earlier in this thread that I think the most efficient strategy is to take the PSAT in November of Junior year, then ACT in February - and then use test results from those sittings to determine the remainder of the test taking strategy. But on average kids who go the ACT-only route are probably going to end up spending less time testing than kids who either go SAT only or kids who take both.</p>

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<p>roshke- Trust me there are SOME kids who hate the format of the SAT and physically feel ill (not nerves) while enduring this testing process. Maybe because I have been so open with my own d's experience with the SAT, I have heard from countless parents who have had similar experiences. On the other hand, my d welcomed taking the ACT (maybe in comparison to the SAT) which she took 3 times. I will say, for the majority of kids, their reaction and results to both exams will be similar. But for some kids there is a marked difference.<br>
I am again going to stress- have your kid "dabble" in both tests (unless you are truly satisfied with your first test result) and then find the better test for your kid and let them concentrate on that test.<br>
Today is my d's graduation Day- Hooray and a Hearty Congratulations to my baby!!!
Gotta go check the website to see if they are moving graduation indoors. There's a lot of rain on Long Island today.</p>

<pre><code> Just checked the website- It's Indoors!!
</code></pre>

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<p>Any more help/opinions on my post #51 - please??</p>