ACT w/ writing in lieu of SAT subject tests at Ivies, SWAP, MIT & Stanford

Parents Forum
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<p>With the addition of writing sections to the SAT I (reasoning) and ACT last spring, the standardized testing landscape has changed for the most competitive schools. Formerly, schools required usually 3 SAT II subject tests, but the addition of writing to the SAT I reduced the required # of SAT II’s to 2 at many schools. Also, some colleges now accept the new ACT, with 4 sections: M, V, writing, & science, in lieu of the SAT I’s and II’s.</p>

<p>As an easterner from SAT-land new to the ACT game, I am curious about those schools where the new ACT will suffice……reason?......potential minimization of S’s testing effort.</p>

<p>This web site is a great resource for pinning down specific SAT and ACT requirements by college:
<a href="http://www.compassprep.com/admissions_req_subjects.aspx%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.compassprep.com/admissions_req_subjects.aspx&lt;/a> </p>

<p>Here is a list of selective colleges/uni’s that take the ACT (with writing) in lieu of both SAT I’s & SAT II subject tests:</p>

<p>Amherst
Brown
Penn
Pomona
Swarthmore
Yale</p>

<p>…..so, those "Ivies+SWAP+MIT+Stanford" still requiring SAT II subject tests (beyond writing) no matter what are:</p>

<p>Columbia (2 subject tests)
Cornell (2)
Dartmouth (2)
Harvard (3)
MIT (2)
Princeton (3)
Williams (2)</p>

<p>These above write that they take either the SAT I or ACT. I know there's been much discussion recently on CC about doubting the claim that the ACT is truly as good as the SAT for the NE stodgy schools.</p>

<p>Not sure about Stanford…..here’s what they say: “We require either the SAT Reasoning Test or the ACT, and we strongly recommend that students taking the new SAT also take two SAT Subject Tests.”……so, sounds like they really want you to take 2 subject tests, but I could also interpret that subject tests are not required for ACT-only submitters.</p>

<p>So, will Columbia, Williams, etc ever change to an all-ACT policy like Amherst, Yale, et al?</p>

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<p>"So, will Columbia, Williams, etc ever change to an all-ACT policy like Amherst, Yale, et al?"</p>

<p>The current policy of accepting the ACT in lieu of the Subject Tests is an aberration. A comparison of the Subject Tests and the material covered in the ACT does not indicate much logic behind the decision of certain schools o accept the ACT as a substitute. </p>

<p>This is a list of the current Subject Tests:</p>

<p>*Academic subjects *
1. English Literature
2. U.S. History (formerly American History and Social Studies)
3. World History
4. Mathematics Level 1 (formerly Mathematics IC)
5. Mathematics Level 2 (formerly Mathematics IIC)
6. Biology E/M
7. Chemistry
8. Physics </p>

<p>*Foreign Languages *
1. Chinese with Listening
2. French/French with Listening
3. German/German with Listening
4. Spanish/Spanish with Listening
5. Modern Hebrew
6. Italian
7. Latin
8. Japanese with Listening
9. Korean with Listening </p>

<p>I would love to know what part of the ACT did Yale or Pomona find in the above list and WHY they changed their requests to see 2 or 3 Subject Tests? The ONLY plausible reason is the geographical limitation on the SAT test centers in ACT-land. If students cannot take the SAT, it is also hard to ask them to take a Subject Test.</p>

<p>So, as far as the original question, "So, will Columbia, Williams, etc ever change to an all-ACT policy like Amherst, Yale, et al?", I would bet good money that a less asinine policy will surface very soon, and that the result will be that the ACT will not be considered a substitute for Subject Tests or that the Subject Tests requirements will be eliminated altogether or aligned with the more extensive AP listing.</p>

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<p>I agree with xiggi that the policy is very peculiar. A recent thread (<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=88835%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=88835&lt;/a&gt;) covered this topic in great detail but we were far from consensus on whether schools like Yale are sincere in their position that they accept ACT-only without prejudice.</p>

<p>I'll restate my 2 cents:
"It is beyond me how any admissions rep at a highly-selective could look you in the eye and say that a test that you can do in one day that has only 4 parts (ACT) is as informative as tests that have 5 elements total (or 6 if three STs are required) and take two days. One could also claim (and adcoms may believe) that with the SAT they get a score from a test that has its roots (and still has remnants) in logic/aptitude AND with ST's as well then they also get scores that provide a measure of achievement, whereas ACT has always (proudly) claimed to be primarily an achievement test only."</p>

<p>And a recent real-life dilemma: A friend of mine who wants to go to Yale has near perfect ACT scores (35 Comp I believe); 2000-2100 SAT's (7 Essay); and 1 really good Subject Test score, 2 OK ST scores, and 1 fairly bad ST score. She's really struggling with whether or not to send Yale the College Board scores (obviously she can't send only the ST's that she likes). What would you all advise?</p>

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<p>Yes, thanks Xiggi & 2400SAT.....as someone new to the standardized testing game w/ #1 S a junior, its hard to make sense of the current lay of the land. Frankly, I was surprised to see so many competitive schools taking ACT instead of SAT 2's, and wondered what was behind this. Default position for us, recognizing we are in the heart of SAT-land, will be to forge ahead under the SAT paradigm, and throw in an ACT early on to assess its potential applicability, assuming of course S obliges, and also recognizing that S's college list is in its infancy.</p>

<p>So, out of pure academic curiosity, do you think the Amhersts of the world will eventually go back to requiring SAT 2's?</p>

5

<p>2400, my two cents is that there is no good reason for your friend to submit the College Board info. While there may be some skepticism about whether Yale is sincere in its stated ACT policy, the unfortunate fact is that your friend's College Board material really isn't competitive for Yale, while the ACT score at least keeps her in the hunt.</p>

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<p>Papa, also bear in mind that your original post stated that Princeton will take either the ACT or SAT. That's incorrect -- Princeton will take the ACT only under very limited circumstances (i.e. only if ALL of the student's other applications are ACT-only schools).</p>

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<p>Iderochi-- I've read on CC about Princeton's reluctance on the ACT, but their web page words could lead the neophyte (i.e., me!) to initially believe that they do.....here's a clip from their Academic Requirements page:</p>

<p>"Test Score Requirements
Applicants for undergraduate admission normally are expected to take the following examinations:</p>

<p>SAT I or ACT, and SAT II (three subjects);
the TOEFL score is required for non-native English speakers who are not in an English-language school."</p>

<p>.........and also their admissions Q&A page:</p>

<p>"Does Princeton accept ACT (American College Testing) scores?</p>

<p>Yes. We will accept ACT results in place of SAT I scores only. All applicants must submit SAT II scores."</p>

<p>Maybe I missed it, but I could find no other suggestion of limiting the circumstances of ACT applicability on these readily-accessible admissions web-pages.</p>

<p>BUT, upon further reading of their pdf'd Viewbook (buried down on page 46), here's what corroborates your assertion that Princeton discriminates against the ACT:
"If the only other colleges to which an applicant is applying require the results of .... ACT, the applicant may submit his or her ACT results in place of the SAT I Test only."</p>

<p>It is interesting to me how the web-page excerpts read (i.e., no reference to ACT limitations) relative to the more-obscured Viewbook excerpt.</p>

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<p>I don't know of any schools which require the ACT. Does anyone else? If there are none, Princeton ought to state directly that the SAT is required.</p>

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<p>I raised the same question some time ago (buried in a different thread), and there are some -- the list consisted of BYU, a number of fairly obscure religious-oriented schools, and some two-year colleges. I agree that Princeton needs to either be much more upfront about their policy OR stop their charade ans simply insist on the SAT. </p>

<p>With thanks to Xiggi, here is the ACT-only list he provided in response to my question:</p>

<p>ACT-ONLY INSTITUTIONS </p>

<p>Sheldon Jackson College Sitka AK
Arkansas State University-Beebe Branch Beebe AR
Central Baptist College Conway AR
Crowley's Ridge College Paragould AR
Jefferson RMC Sch of Radiologic Tech Pine Bluff AR
Jefferson School of Nursing Pine Bluff AR
St Vincent Infirmary Sch Radiologic Tch Little Rock AR
Pacific Union College Angwin CA
Florida Christian College Kissimmee FL
Florida College Temple Terrace FL
Marion County Sch Radiologic Technology Ocala FL
Altamaha Technical Institute Jesup GA
Iowa Methodist School of Radiolog Tech Des Moines IA
Jennie Edmundson Hosp Sch Radiologic Tc Council Bluffs IA
North Iowa Mercy HC Sch Radiologic Tch Mason City IA
Northwest Nazarene College Nampa ID
East-West University Chicago IL
Moody Bible Institute Chicago IL
Olivet Nazarene University Kankakee IL
Providence Baptist College Elgin IL
St Francis Med Ctr Sch Rad Tech-IL Peoria IL
Truman College Chicago IL
West Suburban College of Nursing Oak Park IL
Heritage Baptist University Greenwood IN
Hyles-Anderson College Crown Point IN
Emporia State University Emporia KS
Haskell Indian Nations University Lawrence KS
Washburn University of Topeka Topeka KS
Eastern Kentucky University Richmond KY
Hazard Community College Hazard KY
Henderson Community College Henderson KY
Jefferson Community College-KY Louisville KY
Lexington Community College Lexington KY
Madisonville Community College Madisonville KY
Mid-Continent College Mayfield KY
Murray State University Murray KY
Northern Kentucky University Highland Heights KY
Pikeville College Pikeville KY
Prestonsburg Community College Prestonsburg KY
Southeast Community College Cumberland KY
Baton Rouge Gen M C Sch of Rad Tech Baton Rouge LA
Bossier Parish Community College Bossier City LA
Louisiana State Univ at Alexandria Alexandria LA
Louisiana State University at Eunice Eunice LA
Louisiana State University Sch Dentist New Orleans LA
Louisiana State U-Sch of Allied Health Shreveport LA
North Oaks Med Cntr Sch Radiologic Tech Hammond LA
Northeast Louisiana University Monroe LA
Saint Joseph Seminary College Saint Benedict LA
Southeastern Louisiana University Hammond LA
Southern University at New Orleans New Orleans LA
Southern University at Shreveport Shreveport LA
FaithWay Baptist College Ypsilanti MI
Ferris State University Big Rapids MI
Grace Bible College Grand Rapids MI
Lawrence Technological University Southfield MI
Madonna University Livonia MI
Oakland University Rochester MI
Bemidji State University Bemidji MN
Martin Luther College New Ulm MN
Minnesota State University, Mankato Mankato MN
Oak Hills Bible College Bemidji MN
University of Minnesota-Crookston Crookston MN
Conception Seminary College Conception MO
Le Cox School of Radiologic Technology Springfield MO
Lincoln University-MO Jefferson City MO
Mineral Area College Park Hills MO
Missouri Western State College St Joseph MO
Southwest Missouri State U-West Plains West Plains MO
St John's School of Radiology Springfield MO
Copiah-Lincoln Community College Wesson MS
Copiah-Lincoln Community Coll-Natchez Natchez MS
Hinds Comm College-Jackson Campus Jackson MS
Hinds Comm College-Rankin Branch Pearl MS
Hinds Comm College-Raymond Campus Raymond MS
Hinds Comm College-Utica Campus Utica MS
Hinds Comm College-Vicksburg/Warren Vicksburg MS
Mississippi Bapt Med Ctr Sch Rad Tech Jackson MS
Mississippi Delta Community College Moorhead MS
Pearl River Community College Poplarville MS
Wilkes Community College Wilkesboro NC
Medcenter One Health Systems Radiology Bismarck ND
Turtle Mountain Community College Belcourt ND
Alegent Health Sch of Radiologic Tech Omaha NE
Grace Univesity Omaha NE
Midland Lutheran College Fremont NE
Nebraska College of Tech Agriculture Curtis NE
Union College-NE Lincoln NE
Genesee Community College Batavia NY
Practical Bible College Bible School Park NY
Jefferson Technical College Steubenville OH
Mansfield General Hosp Sch of Nursing Mansfield OH
Marion Technical College Marion OH
MedCentral College of Nursing Mansfield OH
Mount Vernon Nazarene College Mount Vernon OH
East Central University Ada OK
Northern Oklahoma College Tonkawa OK
Rogers University-Claremore Campus Claremore OK
Southwestern Oklahoma St U-Sayre Sayre OK
Bob Jones University Greenville SC
Holmes Bible College Greenville SC
McKennan Hosp Sch Radiologic Technology Sioux Falls SD
Presentation College Aberdeen SD
Sioux Valley Hosp Sch Radiologic Tech Sioux Falls SD
South Dakota State University Brookings SD
Free Will Baptist Bible College Nashville TN
Methodist Hosps Sch of Radiologic Tech Memphis TN
Tennessee Technological University Cookeville TN
Volunteer State Community College Gallatin TN
Brigham Young University Provo UT
Clover Park Technical College Lakewood WA
Walla Walla College College Place WA
Baptist College of Ministry Menomonee Falls WI
Bellin College of Nursing Green Bay WI
Northeast Wisconsin Technical College Green Bay WI
Univ of Wisconsin-Baraboo/Sauk County Baraboo WI
Univ of Wisconsin-Barron County Rice Lake WI
Univ of Wisconsin-Fond Du Lac Fond Du Lac WI
Univ of Wisconsin-Fox Valley Menasha WI
Univ of Wisconsin-Green Bay Green Bay WI
Univ of Wisconsin-La Crosse La Crosse WI
Univ of Wisconsin-Manitowoc Manitowoc WI
Univ of Wisconsin-Marathon County Wausau WI
Univ of Wisconsin-Marshfield/Wood Co Marshfield WI
Univ of Wisconsin-Richland Richland Center WI
Univ of Wisconsin-River Falls River Falls WI
Univ of Wisconsin-Rock County Janesville WI
Univ of Wisconsin-Sheboygan Sheboygan WI
Univ of Wisconsin-Stevens Point Stevens Point WI
Univ of Wisconsin-Superior Superior WI
Univ of Wisconsin-Washington County West Bend WI
Univ of Wisconsin-Waukesha Waukesha WI
Southern West Virginia C Tech C-Logan Mt Gay WV
St Mary's/Marshall U Coop Nursing Prgm Huntington WV
W Virginia Univ Hosp Sch of Radiology Morgantown WV</p>

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<p>Iderochi, D is in a similar place to the above example with scores somewhat closer. She has a 1470/2160 SAT and a 35 composite ACT. These schools all say that they will view your test scores in the light most favorable to you. Being a skeptic myself, I can see how one could doubt that they would do what they say. ;)</p>

<p>We have been planning on sending both, as the SAT 1 score puts her in the top 1% nationally for females and her 1470 is solidly above the 75th at most of her schools. Do you believe the 35 standing alone (which has been sent to all schools on her list) is preferable in these circumstances? Both for admissions and potential merit aid at schools offering same?</p>

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<p>Cur, that's a closer call for your D because the 1470 is competitive. But still, the 35 converts to a what -- 1580? To me, that's a big enough difference that I would just submit the ACT. Plus, you live in a part of the country where ACT is the norm, right? So I don't think it would raise any eyebrows if your D simply submitted the ACT score. But hey, that's just my humble opinion. What say the true gurus here -- Carolyn, Xiggi, etc.?</p>

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<p>here's a clip from Yale's admissions Q&A:</p>

<p>"In evaluating SAT or ACT results, does Yale consider scores from previous test dates?
Yes, in the sense that readers of the application will see all of the test results that are in your file. In most cases we receive cumulative SAT, SAT II and ACT records reflecting results from all test dates. If you have repeated any of the tests, however, the formal admissions committee that meets to vote on applications will see only the highest score you received on any individual test."</p>

<p>I liberally interpret this answer to mean that they will look at the highest scores from EACH type of test, not the better performance between the ACT or SATs......thus supporting curmudgeon's skeptism.</p>

<p>Harvard has similar words which allude to the likelihood that all submitted test scores are part of their evaluation:</p>

<p>"For the Class of 2010, students may submit either the "old" SAT I or ACT taken before March 2005, or the new SAT or ACT (which must include the writing section). As always, students must also submit three SAT II exams of their choosing. The Admissions Committee will continue to consider all test results in light of students' educational opportunities."</p>

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<p>ps....Williams says essentially the same thing:</p>

<p>"Williams will consider only your best performance on each type of exam (SAT and ACT if both are taken). We consider your best individual scores on the verbal, math, and writing sections of SAT; best composite ACT scores; best score on each SAT Subject Test taken."</p>

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<p>We're also in the position of having a kid with excellent ACT's and SAT II's, but one sitting of SAT I that is not in the same league as the other scores. With schools that accept ACT without any SAT's, there's no problem. We'll just send the ACT's. But with schools that require SAT I or ACT plus SATII's, the schools will see the SAT I score. Our question is whether it is necessary, in this situation, to record the SAT I score on the common app. Since D would prefer to give the ACT in lieu of the SAT I -- and the schools in question accept the ACT in lieu of the SAT I -- does it look squirrely to omit the SAT I score from the common app? It sounds as if several of your kids are in a similar situation. What do you plan to do? Is there GC or Admissions Rep advice on this? (I tried phoning and asking one school but didn't get far with the admissions secretary.)</p>

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<p>CCSurfer's common app question has been discussed on a E-list for the National Association of College Admissions Counselors. They were nowhere near a consensus. </p>

<p>Papa Chicken, another wrinkle to all this is why on earth do colleges look at the best individual scores on the SAT but only the best Composite on the ACT? The only school that I know of that says they mix and match ACT scores is Wash U in St. Louis.</p>

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<p>My take on ccsurfer's question is a practical one. In D's case she has a very respectable score on the SAT and an out of this world ACT. She previously sent her very good SAT to 6 schools still on her list. She will list both SAT and ACT on those Common Apps. (Because they have the SAT already and it would seem odd not to report it) . On her other schools she will put only her ACT. (As her second SAT did not improve her scores in any area, though they were the same in two and the ACT score is by the concordance on the collegeboard site 110 points higher than her best SAT.)</p>

<p>It is my reading of the Common App form that they are asking for "scores you want considered by them in the applications process". That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Pffftt.</p>

<p>P.S. I think U of Michigan takes best sections of ACT,also (or at least that has been reported on CC by others).</p>

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<p>Sounds like Princeton may have changed recently. Anything in HTML on the site is likely to be more up to date than anything in PDF. Call the admissions office - maybe they have changed.</p>

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<p>Alu, I felt that Princeton had rewritten it, too when I looked again. Recently. Wishfully.</p>

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<p>Cur - Did you call them? Hell, say go and I will call them. You know I have always wished that Mudgie would show up and read them the riot act from high atop Nassau Hall...</p>

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<p>OK. I called. You can submit the ACT but you also have to submit three SAT IIs. That's the policy. However, if someone is applying RD, the SAT IIs can be taken as late as the January sitting. </p>

<p>So there you go.</p>