admissions advice?

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Pennsylvania
1

<p>I have my mind set on applying to Wharton ED but from what i have heard i don't like my chances. I am currently 1/300 at my high school class and have taken all the hardest classes but my SAT's are mediocre (math 710, CR 680, Reading 600) and I no activities that really stand out. (I am an officer of a club and play sports but so does everyone else). I guess it also doesn't help that i am a middle class, white boy from the suburbs in Ohio.</p>

<p>I guess what I'm asking is for advice on how to showcase my leadership qualities. I believe I am a leader in the classroom where i get good grades and go beyond what is required of me every day. My senior year i am not even able to have a lunch so i can fit both AP Physics BC and Choir, both of which i am very dedicated to. I am willing to do anything to improve my chances before November 1st but I have run out of ideas. If anyone has any suggestions of what i could do or even what helped them get in it would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.</p>

2

<p>CR and reading aren't supposed to be the same thing?.....
The writing section is left out.</p>

3

<p>Oops! my bad when i said reading i was referring to writing.
(math 710, CR 680, writing 600) thanks for pointing that out.</p>

4

<p>your going to have a very hard time getting into wharton with those SATs. If you had an 800 in Math it would help and an 800 on the SAT II Math II. Honestly its probably not even worth it. Sorry if thats not what you wanted to hear</p>

5

<p>Unfortunately, I agree that your chances aren't the greatest. But there's never harm in trying, even if what you do won't get you into Wharton doesn't mean it can't help you elsewhere, and more importantly help you as a person (that's supposed to be the goal, right?)
We can't really help you until we know what your passion is. Try reflecting on that for a while, and see what you can do to really express that. Even if it's something as silly as video games (okay, not silly if it's Starcraft we're talking about), you can still do something with it like organizing a video game tournament from scratch to raise money for an appropriate charity. So sit back and reflect on who you are, and if you still can't think of what to do, come back here and we'll try to help you out, okay?
Good luck!</p>

6

<p>Good SATs cant get you in. Bad SATs can keep you out. Retake, and if you cant get higher, then perhaps you dont belong.</p>

7

<p>Well I've already taken them twice. Would taking them a third time look bad? Also CCFanatic, you say bad SATs can keep you out but where is the line between good and bad in your opinion?
So far i haven't thought of much but i did perform at Carnegie Hall with my school choir. Would writing my essay on that be a good idea if i highlighted the teamwork aspect of it?
And finally, my subject tests were:
Math II: 740
Physics: 770
are these considered good scores or should i consider retaking them as well?
Thanks for all the help so far.</p>

8

<p>simple answer is then not to apply to wharton, which is the most competitive school at penn and instead to engineering or CAS. Your SAT IIs are good, your sat I is not good enough to say you have a realistic shot. its not awful, its just not good enough unless everything else is perfect.</p>

9

<p>There is no line between good/mediocore SAT scores for Wharton/Penn, but I would say that a score of 2200-2250 would be one that doesn't detract or add to your chances. Math II should really be 770+ for wharton, it is a really easy test with a super curve. Your physics score is great though</p>

10

<p>Wow, that's some misinformation there Bescraze. </p>

<ol>
<li>Engineering kids have, on average, BETTER SATs than Wharton kids do. A higher acceptance rate shouldn't be confused with lower selectivity.</li>
<li>The College isn't THAT much less competitive than Wharton to get in. The difference between acceptance rates is something like <5%. That means there's a VERY small percentage of people in the College who couldn't have gotten into Wharton. The far majority of people in the College could have gotten into Wharton if they liked.</li>
</ol>

<p>If your into business, apply to Wharton. If you're into engineering, apply to SEAS. If none of the above, apply to the College. I wouldn't recommend anybody apply to a school they aren't interested in, just because they THINK it would make their chances insignificantly greater. </p>

11

<p>APPLY TO WHARTON.</p>

<p>what's there to lose?</p>

<p>and guess what? life isn't about your SAT score (contrary to some people's belief. how sad, sad, sad their lives are..). show them who you are, and maybe you're a good fit for their school, and they'll take you.</p>

12

<p>
[quote]
1. Engineering kids have, on average, BETTER SATs than Wharton kids do. A higher acceptance rate shouldn't be confused with lower selectivity.
2. The College isn't THAT much less competitive than Wharton to get in. The difference between acceptance rates is something like <5%. That means there's a VERY small percentage of people in the College who couldn't have gotten into Wharton. The far majority of people in the College could have gotten into Wharton if they liked.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>You completely miss my point. People in CAS (I know a lot) are very smart, its obviously very competitive. Yet, Wharton is harder to get into and it also has a more self-selective applicant pool. CAS will take someone who is weaker in math, but stronger in reading/writing, in Wharton that is not true. It is very math oriented. My comments pertained to this persons application and it is undeniably true that Wharton for him would be harder to get into, because of his weak SATs and unexceptional math credentials. Personally, I don't think he will get admitted to any college at Penn, but that was not the question</p>

<p>Also please prove to me how engineering students at Penn have higher scores, I have never seen that anywhere and Penn does not release that data. My selectivity it would go Wharton than CAS (not by too much) and then a good amoutn down the list Engineering then even more Nursing. Penn egineering is not considered top notch, like CAS or Wharton is.</p>

13

<p>
[quote]
CAS will take someone who is weaker in math, but stronger in reading/writing, in Wharton that is not true

[/quote]

You could say the same about CAS vs SEAS. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Also please prove to me how engineering students at Penn have higher scores, I have never seen that anywhere and Penn does not release that data. My selectivity it would go Wharton than CAS (not by too much) and then a good amoutn down the list Engineering then even more Nursing. Penn egineering is not considered top notch, like CAS or Wharton is.

[/quote]

While there is no official information about the admission statistics or SAT scores of any of the individual schools at Penn, most students would say that SEAS students have higher SAT scores and are smarter than their peers on average. Wharton students are more driven and have more stuff on their resumes, but aren't necessarily smarter on average. Nursing might have the highest acceptance rate, but that is because it has a very self selective applicant pool. It just doesn't attract as many applicants per seat as the other schools at Penn. Keep in mind, acceptance rate != selectivity. It's more about fit. A student who has everything perfect for Wharton might have nothing that indicates that he is interested in engineering or nursing and won't get admitted to either school.</p>

14

<p>I'll start with your second point: As to the Engineering versus Wharton SAT question, the two sources are below. Unfortunately its somewhat of an apples to oranges question, since the Wharton SAT score is an average and the engineering SAT score is a range. BUT if we say that the engineering SAT scores are normally distributed (which is a fairly reasonable assumption), taking the average of the CR and Math sections and adding gives penn engineers an average of 1425 versus an average of 1430 for wharton. You should know that a difference of 5 on the SAT's is nearly insignificant. If anything, our assumption is probably off in that the median for engineering is likely above the mean; this translates to the majority of kids doing better than average and a few kids below average but who had other amazing "qualities", which is again a fair take on Ivy League admissions. At the very least, this proves that Wharton and Engineering are at a "dead heat" when it comes to SAT scores. I laugh at myself for even comparing SAT scores so rigorously since there is so much more that goes into admissions. </p>

<p>Sources:
1. University</a> of Pennsylvania Undergrad Profile
2. <a href="http://www.seas.upenn.edu/under/ugviewbook.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.seas.upenn.edu/under/ugviewbook.pdf&lt;/a> (pg 22)</p>

<p>With that out of the way, you touch upon a larger misconception on this forum. Yes, I can't deny that the student with weaker math credentials and stronger verbal/writing credentials will have an easier chance in the College than Wharton. But that's not what your first post implied. You encouraged the OP to apply to CAS for the SOLE purpose that his SAT scores weren't good enough. Not based on his interests, or the fact that he has his "mind set on Wharton". And I argue that's a terrible idea.</p>

<p>Why? The number one question that pops up recurrently on the Penn forum (and I've been visiting here for 2 and half years) is "should I apply to Wharton or CAS?". Sometimes Engineering gets thrown in there too. The number one answer is NOT scores but FIT. If you are interested in business, apply to Wharton. If you are interested in engineering, apply to SEAS. Etc with Nursing. If none of the above, and you still want to come to Penn, apply to CAS. I will almost GUARANTEE that you will HATE your four years in college if you are in the wrong place. I've seen them all - Whartonites who would've loved to study the classics and hate finance/accounting, Engineers who'd kill to be in Wharton, etc.</p>

<p>To further strike the nail in the coffin, one could look at SAT scores as a ROUGH idea of selectivity. I just showed that Wharton and Engineering are in a statistical dead heat, at minimum, when it comes to selectivity. Although statistics aren't available, I'm nearly certain the same is true for CAS as well.</p>

<p>One last thing: Selectivity is NOT equivalent to percent accepted. Just because Penn Engineering accepts around 30-40% of its class while Wharton accepts less than 20% (these are rough numbers here, just to give an idea of the spread) doesn't make Penn Engineering less SELECTIVE than wharton. i just proved that SEAS is equally selective as wharton in terms of SAT scores. Obviously each school is selective about different things: wharton is more selective about things like leadership experience while SEAS looks for math and science aptitude. But since those other things are a true apples-to-oranges comparison, we can only go by quantiative stuff like scores - and it's essentially the same.</p>

<p>You're probably a smart kids if your considering Penn -- why would you want to apply to the incorrect school for you? Are you seriously interested in hating the four years you spend in college? Just apply to the school fits you the best. Your chances of getting in based on the quantitative stuff (scores, grades, etc.) remain nearly the same no matter which one you chose. And chances are, your qualitiative stuff (clubs, essay, etc.) probably fits better with that school anyway.</p>

15

<p>I'm not interested in Penn's engineering program if that clears things up. I want to major in either business (finance in particular) or engineering because i am passionate about both but since i can only apply to one or the other at Penn, i was much more impressed with Wharton. There are many other engineering schools that i will apply to. Wharton is my reach school but i was just wondering how i could improve my chances. All people at Penn are smart and i hope they don't just fight about which school's students are best. Also, i don't think the SAT is a good measure of someone's intelligence when people can be so different from each other. I hope you guys can help me out and forget about the stats. What does the admissions board want to see and how could i get that on my application? Maybe i don't have a chance but I'm not going to give up because of a standardized test. thanks.</p>

16

<p>I constantly hear about "passion". Even from a MIT admission officer, the adcom wants to see that you care about something and devoted time to it. From that perpective thinking of something that you are passionate about and write every essay to tie into that passion from a different angle, and from that will make a great application. Remember the app is about a story that the adcom gets to be submerged in for about 20 minutes, making it a congruent story is what boosts your chances.</p>

17

<p>haha, sorry OP. got carried away my rant back there. back to helping you.</p>

<p>unfortunately, they're not going to "forget" about the stats when they review your application. SAT scores included. anyway given your situation, here's what you can do:</p>

<ol>
<li>One of the things wharton stresses more than other highly selective schools seems to be leadership. Being an officer of just one club may not cut it. Perhaps you can emphasize the teamwork/leadership involved in your sports?</li>
<li>Get Good Recommendations: It'll be difficult to make the assertion that you are a "leader in class" by yourself. Recommendations from your teachers who have SEEN you be a leader and can WRITE about you being a leader would be far more effective. Also have your guidance counselor (rather than you yourself) emphasize how difficult your schedule really is and show you're a hard worker.</li>
<li>Retake your tests. You're certainly a smart kid if you are 1 out of 300 in your class - why do you feel like a 2000 is your unreachable limit? The secret to the SATs is practice practice practice. At some points in high school I remember spending an hour a day (one section of each subject per day) just practicing. Rinse and repeat. Eventually you'll start getting into a flow, and your scores will begin to improve. A 710 in math means you probably made 2-4 careless mistakes, there's no reason that can't rise to an 800. Your writing score can also show huge improvement; there may be hundreds of rules in grammar, but with practice you'll eventually see that the SAT just tests you on just a few of them.</li>
</ol>

<p>My assessment is that there are tons of other middle class white males applying to Penn. You HAVE to distinguish yourself somehow, whether that's with high scores, crazy extracurriculars, or a good essay (preferably all three). From the information you have provided, you don't seem to have much in either of these. </p>

<p>The choir thing in Carnegie Hall is somewhat interesting, and you're right - it could make a good essay. On the other hand I can also see it become a terrible essay, especially if you try to blow it out proportion and come across with something like "OMG it's Carnegie Hall OMG". Make sure your doing more "showing" about yourself rather than "telling." </p>

<p>Sorry if this offends you, but I'm trying to be as honest as possible. Follow the above formula and you may have a shot. As it stands now, it's pretty doubtful though.</p>

18

<p>First of all, my initial post was exact, regarding his SAT scores. Trust me, Wharton can boost its SAT median score easily, but it looks at many varied characteristics. Math being among the top (the require you to take MATHIIC). Egineering at Penn has a very high acceptance rate, probably around 30% and that absolutely effects the qualities of its students. SAT scores do not tell everything about a student body, but an acceptance rate can sure help. Maybe they head weak grades, weak ECs and good SATs? </p>

<p>
[quote]

Why? The number one question that pops up recurrently on the Penn forum (and I've been visiting here for 2 and half years) is "should I apply to Wharton or CAS?". Sometimes Engineering gets thrown in there too. The number one answer is NOT scores but FIT. If you are interested in business, apply to Wharton. If you are interested in engineering, apply to SEAS. Etc with Nursing. If none of the above, and you still want to come to Penn, apply to CAS. I will almost GUARANTEE that you will HATE your four years in college if you are in the wrong place. I've seen them all - Whartonites who would've loved to study the classics and hate finance/accounting, Engineers who'd kill to be in Wharton, etc.

[/quote]

I completely disagree. This is not a zero sum game, many people would be extremely happy at more than one of those schools. Heres an example, my SATs were 800 CR, 670 M and 800 W. I know I could probably get into CAS (ED legacy---not though) but I would prefer to go to Wharton. I know based on my weakness in math that I do not have a realistic shot and thus I am choosing not to apply there. I have a friend who had great SATs (2310), applied ED to wharton and got rejected. He would have almost absolutely been accepted into CAS, it was a bad strategic move. Fit is important, but more than that goes into your college decisions. So as a result, I am apply SCEA to Stanford, where my weakness in math will not kill me and I can still go to a great/prestigious school, which I like.</p>

19

<p>Sorry, again that is misinfo. I don't blame you though, your post seems to follow a few widespread (but generally incorrect) notions that inhabit the Penn forum.</p>

<p>The point of my post was to stress that acceptance rate is NOT equivalent to selectivity. I can confirm what Venkat said; on campus, engineers are generally seen as the "smartest," if such a comparison can even be made at Penn. Their high school grades and ECs are generally on-par with those in Wharton (of course with a slant towards science/technical ones rather than leadership/business ones), and I already proved to you that the SAT scores are comparable. Penn Engineering also requires the MathIIC, and engineers need an even greater aptitude for math than wharton. I don't know if I can "trust you" that Wharton can boost its SAT median score easily because 1) that would probably decrease the quality of the incoming class in terms of other areas (who wants a class full of only SAT robots without say leadership experience or good grades) and 2) you are in high school, and neither an admissions officer nor current student, and I don't know how we can "trust" you without anything more than anecdotal "my friend did this" evidence :)</p>

<p>To be honest, the real reason for Penn Engineering's high acceptance rate is it's low yield rate (percentage of kids accepted who actually attend). This has more to do with the perceived "prestige" of Penn Engineering versus other schools. This feeling exists even though I personally think that Penn Engineering grads fare as well or even better than counterparts at "more prestigious" engineering schools. (this is in terms of jobs, accomplishments, and ability to be real well-rounded and cultured people rather than mindless math/science/research robots). But that's a topic for another day. The main point is that they admit more students per available seat because there's a greater chance a student won't attend - NOT because those students are of a lower quality. </p>

<p>I understand you may be comfortable with attending either Wharton or CAS, but I find that many people would be horribly out of place at one versus the other. Regardless, I stress that the selectivity (not percent acceptance, of course) at Penn and Wharton is closer than you think. Quantiatively you'll find that CAS kids did just as well as their Wharton counterparts in the quantitative parts of high school (scores, grades, etc.) Understandably the two schools are looking at different things qualitiatively, but nontheless both schools have students with very impressive backstories. If you are torn between the two (and thus probably fit the profile for both), you gain very little advantage by applying to one versus the other. </p>

<p>Bottom line: Take it from a current student - there isn't as much "strategy" to applying to Penn as one may think after reading this forum. If you have a strong passion for business, please don't apply to the College for the ever-so-slightly higher chance you may get into Penn. First of all, you'll probably hate your four years studying something you don't enjoy. Second, it. To speak in the language of the business-minded applicants, let's just put this in risk/return terms - if its the same risk but less returns to apply to CAS, why do it?</p>

20

<p>Ok well I'm wondering about a few things. First of all... if you have average SAT scores or ACT (around 2200 or 33-34) what are main factors that help distinguish you from others. Like I know you have to show interest in Penn and genuine interest in business but I'm just not sure how to go about doing that. Penn (Wharton) Is my first choice school and I will definitely be writing that as much as I can in my application, but my ECs dont seem to have much business related activities. I went to a business camp at Illinois State University for a week (the bussiness school there) but that is about it. I have a number of diferent service hours from cancer center to science museum to school events but I am not sure what other sorts of things I need. Also, what sort of things can I talk about in my essay to show my complete interest.</p>

<p>One more thing... I have heard that college admissions officers can see all the other colleges you apply to. Would it be better to not apply to a couple of other Ivy League schools for the sake of it to show that Penn is my highest choice or would it not matter?</p>