Admissions: Extracurricular Performing Arts School or "Special" Choir

College Majors Musical Theater Major
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<p>For choir, it depends on the caliber. It’s all over the place. My kids were fortunate to be in a school with a nationally ranked choir, and their male acapella group was top in the nation several years in a row. They also fed into All State & All Eastern. These groups are at a different level than a mediocre choir or acapella. Of course they learn sightreading (it’s part of the assessment in All State). If you have an excellent choir, it definitely helps your voice with technique, vocalization, positioning, etc. But if you don’t have a great choir, you can also learn elsewhere, at a community college for example, if you were that interested.</p>

<p>We’ve talked about this elsewhere, but you simply cannot compare athletes with MT students. It is not the same on multiple levels and you are fooling yourself if you think your child doesn’t have to have decent grades but can coast on his/her amazing talent. MT ‘talent’ is HIGHLY SUBJECTIVE. It is an ART, not a SPORT. THe sports program is SEPARATE from the college–there is no “BFA in Football.” Football, on the other hand, has a lot of clout (often controversial) because they rake in the dough, whereas MT programs are losses. I could go on and on. PLEASE --this is just my advice, but in my opinion, it’s a huge mistake to allow your student to slack in grades. Of course, if they try hard and are just not academic, that’s different. But I have seen far too many kids really screw themselves over by doing all MT all the time in high school, getting C’s or worse, and then not getting in to any good college, and settling for an obsure low ranked BFA program as their only school they got into (besides community college).</p>

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<p>A chorus can be “elite” and not necessarily give good musical training.</p>

<p>My son got fantastic choral training as a member of the teen chorus of the Revels. Ten cities have Revels performances in December (ours is Washington) though I don’t know if they all have teen choruses. It’s worth checking. It was great musical training as well as stage training. When my son was a freshman and newly a bass, I really loved it that he was learning Italian Renaissance music with a large selective choir of mostly adults, with a director who was extremely particular about vowels. Last year when he started studying voice privately, the teacher was quite surprised that he could skip past all the introductory basics.</p>

<p>A friend’s daughter was in the World’s Children Choir and found the instruction to be at a very high level. I imagine there are similar ensembles in other big cities.</p>

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<p>prodesse, this is seguing into a different topic but I’m sure we’re saying the same thing. Your kids choirs sound great. </p>

<p>In part, ‘elite’ can mean different things. Or nothing at all. Many programs call their choirs ‘elite’ when they’re not. People just like to put ‘elite’ in front of something, and charge for it–I see that in baseball training for my youngest all the time (An ‘elite’ baseball team! Pay us $3000!). </p>

<p>There are MANY different types of choirs too, with many styles. But you can’t have a true elite choir without musical training, just as you can’t have an ‘elite’ orchestra or jazz band without musical training. When my kids sing in the ‘elite’ All State, for example, you cannot be accepted without sight reading skills, pitch, tone, phrasing etc–all aspects of musical training.</p>

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<p>I guess my initial thought with this thread was simple: is the child having fun while they’re learning about voice, etc, etc? My D loves being in show choir, and it’s taught her a lot about voice (along with her voice teacher), taught her more dance, etc. Hard work but a lot of fun. I wonder if sometimes we’re just expecting our kids to grow up too quickly in this world of performing arts. That’s why I would say to the OP let your child pick the choir or school or whatever where she is getting a good experience, good teaching. But where she’s also having fun. I think we all can name kids we’ve seen either in performing arts or sports or whatever that at high school age or even earlier are burned out and just aren’t having fun. I hate seeing that in kids that young.</p>

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<p>^Wow, the Revels, Prodesse. That’s so cool. I love the Revels. I had no idea it had a teen chorus anywhere.</p>

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<p>@Connections
(I’m going to rant a bit, sorry) Of Course division one football is not perfectly analagous in all respects to a high rated MT program. Perhaps I should have selected a non-revenue sport with D1 scholarships like gymnastics to make my point. Regardless, what I was trying to convey, inartfully so, is that the skill and aptitude that one exhibits in the audition is of overwhelming importance as compared to your grades and written resume. I did not state or even suggest that anyone should slack off on the grades or forgo taking difficult classes. The comparison to division one athletics is apt because it is the talent that is driving the admission decision as long as you are in the academic acceptance range for that school. It is in the higher GPA range for schools like Northwestern, Michigan, and Carnegie Mellon. But those ranges are broader (lower) than if one was applying to one of those schools for Computer Science for example. By way of example, S1 who was accepted to Northwestern for VP and was in the top 3-4% of his class was accepted over several students in his HS class who were in the top 1-2% and applied to the college of arts and sciences or engineering. Now I realize that there are other factors that go into it, but I know that his test scores and GPA were lower by a bit than a few of his classmates who were denied admission. But he had the vocal talent and was in “NU’s academic range”, perhaps in the lower middle.
As to the “pick the school reference” I was using Notre Dame as an example, any other D1 athletic program could have been applicable.
Moral of the story, Like many a parent on CC, I let my kids pursue their dreams and their passions as long as their grades are optimal. So far so good.
The Choir sounds great.</p>

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<p>^^I was pretty sure I understood your intent on the “pick the school” reference and you’ve confirmed it. In any case, where you were going with the analogy was valid even if you picked the wrong sport. :-)</p>

<p>Not sure about what you’re saying NU though with respect to MT anyway. Is there an audition for VP majors? (Somehow I think so but could be wrong). If that is true, that might work in VP but not in MT where there is no audition and thus no way to judge talent. And yes, we’ve gone many rounds on other threads about the resume signaling talent but since they don’t even ask for one I still say it is ENTIRELY about academics and the rest of your application (essays, recs and sure whatever you write in the common app that might signal an interest in theatre) at NU just as it is for other majors. And still they get so many fantastic kids in their program so clearly it’s working. But I know plenty of NU applicants in areas other than VP or MT that got in over other students with higher grades and scores. All were in the range but for one reason or the other some got in and others did not.</p>

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<p>In response to halflokum: yeah, its too early to really worry about. I don’t know the full story, this is just what I’ve pieced together from listening to some of the older students/graduates/teachers chat about while I sit in the waiting room. Apparently CAP21 was part of NYU in some way (contract? sponsorship?) and NYU has it’s own MT program, too. Recently CAP21 spun off and is independent. So there seems to be some question as to how well the graduates in both programs will continue to be placed. (Was there some synergy that was lost? Who knows. Change makes people nervous.) However, by the time it will really matter to my daughter, there’ll be four or five years of track record to gauge if anything radical has happened to either program.</p>

<p>In response to MOMMY5, the school I am referring to is a pay-by-the-class business. Unfortunately, it is very pricey, but a few kids qualify for full scholarships there each semester. The kind of business is not particularly rare, however finding a really good one is a major challenge, especially if you don’t live near a major MT city. One summer, we tried a different “Local” school because it was one town over and we were tired of driving the 45 minutes to the “Excellent” school. The teacher at the local school was a ne’er do well failed actress who took out her frustrations on the kids. She had a temper. Called them stupid. We pulled the plug on that very quickly. In contrast, the Excellent school is a paradoxical combination of rigorous and nurturing. Has a large staff, all with top degrees (Julliard, Yale, etc.) and working in the business. They’re a family.</p>

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<p>Sight reading music is a very important skill, but you don’t need chorus to learn that (and in some choruses, kids don’t even learn to do it). My kid has always been very skilled at sight reading. But this is due to having played two instruments from a young age. Being able to play an instrument and understand music theory and to learn to sight read music is an asset for those going into the field of musical theater. </p>

<p>My D never took Music Theory in high school but she placed out of two years of required Music Theory courses at NYU/Tisch because she was skilled through learning so much of this via her piano teacher growing up. </p>

<p>With regard to sight reading, I recall the first agent submitted audition my kid ever did in NYC and she was shy of turning 11. It was an unusual audition because she wasn’t supposed to sing a prepared song. Rather, the composer taught her a portion of the score on the spot (difficult score as it was not separate songs with a melody but rather a sung through opera to be performed with various symphony orchestras around the country). I recall when her audition was over, the composer opened the door and commented to me, “she learns quickly!” and I know that the fact that she could sight read music, she was able to pick up the music. She got the part and had never had a voice lesson in her life and was up against girls with Broadway credits, including a girl who you would all know who now stars in a hit TV show. I really think that sight reading played a factor in that casting. </p>

<p>Sight reading also comes in handy when you are given a song to learn in class or more importantly, when given an audition appointment or callback and you have 24 hours to learn the music and can do so on your own. </p>

<p>Being able to play an instrument and sight read music comes in handy to get work. My D is on faculty at a BFA in MT program and at this very moment is coaching some MT students on their songs and has to sight read their music on piano well enough in order to help the student with their singing. </p>

<p>In any case, the OP’s daughter can still be in Chorus at her HS and just not do the more select/elite chorus and still participate outside of school in the private performing arts program and so that combo sounds like a good solution.</p>

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<p>Agree entirely about the value of sight reading. Great skill to aquire as soon as you can. Also I’d add that I remember fondly my HS chorus which was by no way “elite” and didn’t compete. We were probably terrible but we didn’t think we were. Something magical happens when you blend voices even if some of them are off key. Not sorry I did it but I was also in no way looking at an MT career so the quality of the experience musically didn’t matter. I just knew it was fun. My daughter who does care about MT did a cappella in HS (and is doing it in college too). Her HS group was good but in no way hard core nor did she look at it as something to advance her MT qualficiations. She just liked it. Plus she was the director of the group by her senior year so I suppose that was “leadership” line item to throw into her college apps.</p>

<p>@DeDiceManCometh: I don’t know the full story either about Cap21 vs. NYU’s NSB MT program since it predated our interest in the school. (Daughter is a freshman at NYU now). As far as I know, Cap21 was a studio partner within the Tisch Drama umbrella much like Meisner and Atlantic still are today. For whatever reason, they decided to bring that training in-house. But all of that predated our experience with the school so the way I look at it, you go forward not backward. Love the one you’re with or decide you don’t and go elsewhere. What I was really saying is that 3 years from now, evaluate what NYU’s program is vs. what it was since its history will not matter. Same can be said about every other school’s program your daughter looks at. Most of them will have evolved in some way 3 years from now which hopefully is a good thing.</p>

<p>Thanks for answering the question about the after school performing arts program. We are also lucky enough to live in a city with a plethora of training offerings but I’d also give a shout out the many wonderful and cherished small town programs as well which for all we know are phenomenal. City access may mean a variety of choices but it doesn’t always mean the highest quality nor the best instruction. Imagine an amazing Broadway veteran who is also a gifted teacher that decides to get out of the rat race and move to somewhere quieter and start program of their own. I think that actually happens and not just on made for TV movies or Bunheads :-)</p>

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<p>Nccpdad, I didn’t feel like you were ‘ranting,’ no worries! You are totally entitled to your opinion, and I respect your point of view. I just want to clarify what I’m saying because this analogy appears so frequently and it causes misperceptions–people are so disappointed when they are rejected from this or that school, or believe they will be accepted because they have this or that award or so and so training. </p>

<p>But it is FAR easier to predict who will be recruited for sports than who will be admitted to a BFA program. MT is NOT analogous to sports, even D1 in gymnastics. Ok, maybe loosely analogous in that both are admitted to colleges based on perceived skills in addition academics, but there the similarities end. </p>

<p>Art is art, sports are sports. “Talent” in the arts is FAR FAR more subjective than ‘talent’ in sports. An athlete who is admitted to a school based mostly on his athleticism rather than his academics is going to have solid stats and years of outside assessments. He is going to be very exceptional but in a way that nearly everyone agrees in. Yes there are always outliers, but mostly, the kid who is recruited for her tennis or his baseball is going to be recognized by everyone, or nearly everyone, as far and away superior. There will be years of data, as I say, and multiple outside assessments. You do not get a kid who suddenly discovers gymnastics at 17 and gets a scholarship to a college for her gynmastics because she has potential. You also don’t get a kid who is in the Olympics not getting offers or not recognized by everyone as extraordinarily talented.</p>

<p>This is not the case for acting and MT. Reality shows give the false impression that there is this thing, Talent, that it is measurable, that it is ranked, and that people agree on it. That is untrue. Acting and MT acting are not easily measured; it is late maturing, it is an ART, it is subjective, it depends on the needs of the program or the show, or personal taste, or balance.</p>

<p>Also, the goals of the schools differ from the goals of schools recruiting athletes. Schools with sports team want them to win. Schools with BFA programs want…What? It depends on the school. To land x% on B’way within y years no matter what role? Well, then they will recruit certain types to maximize their chances. Or is their goal to churn out edgier more unrepresented sorts? They will recruit other types. Or to balance a theatre class within a small internal cohort? They will recruit other types still.</p>

<p>Finally, these are young kids – most don’t have lot of life experience and they have maturing to do (this matters not much is sports)–it is very difficult to tell who has peaked and who is still to hit their stride. Some programs see potential and grab it; others prefer more polished; others both. Many times, since it is subjective, a program will miscalculate, and get a kid who has peaked at 17, or reject another who will turn out to be another Meryl Streep. </p>

<p>I say all this because so many people try to parse each rejection or acceptance as though this were sports. But it is not sports. Do your best, don’t worry if someone else has 10 more years of experience than you, prepare prepare prepare, and don’t sweat the rejections. And sing. In choir or with voice lesson or wherever you want. And follow your dreams. There. That’s simple!</p>

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<p>^^fantastic post connections. Made me think.</p>

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<p>We live in a rural area. Our high school doesn’t have a drama program (no classes in it) but does put on a musical and a play each year. The director of the musical is not on the faculty but is contracted to direct the show each year. He lives here, but used to be on Broadway.</p>

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<p>To the OP, I will echo what many others have said here. She should do whatever makes her happy and from which she feels she will benefit more. I don’t think it will make one bit of difference when it comes to MT auditions and acceptances. My D pretty much gave up her public high school productions and quit her high school honors choir her senior year because neither director was at all flexible with her outside schedule. I totally understand that is their prerogative, and we were not at all resentful. Our D chose outside theater because she enjoyed it more. We have a great equity theater near by, and once she did a show there, I think she just got too frustrated with how unorganized high school productions were. While she enjoyed parts of high school and had plenty of friends, she has always been somewhat of an old soul in a young body, and she seemed to connect more with adults- I think she really enjoyed the professionalism of “real” theater. </p>

<p>I don’t think she missed out on skills that she might have learned in high school chorus. Like Soozievt’s D, she played several instruments from an early age and her sight reading skills are great. One thing I would emphasize for all kids (MT and athletes alike) is that grades should always be the top priority- even if great talent gets a kid into top MT schools, those grades can be the means to affording those schools!</p>

<p>I have to laugh at the comparisons to athletic recruitment. Our D will graduate from a MT program this year, where she was awarded a very large scholarship. Our youngest son is in the process of being recruited for D1 and D2 soccer right now. I have to say that the athletic recruitment has been more stressful overall- I never thought I would say that! As stressful as the MT audition process is, my D basically narrowed down her choices, did all of her auditions over one weekend, and they either liked her or they didn’t. Athletic recruitment has changed over the years- there is not as much money for scholarships, and it is a game of finding an academic program that is right while finding a coach at the same school who wants you. It has involved hundred of hours of calling and writing coaches, and traveling to camps so they can watch him play. Fortunately, we also emphasized academics over sports with him, and it is paying off in the academic scholarship department! I do have to take exception with Flossy’s comment about athletes not being students; my S is in the top 5% of his large high school class, with all honors/AP/IB classes. He is not the exception, at least with soccer- one of his high school team mates will attend Georgetown, one Stanford, 2 USC… (just had to get that defense of athletes in…)</p>

<p>In the end, your D really has to choose what works for her. Colleges won’t care where she chose to train, and she deserves to enjoy life while in high school!</p>

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<p>I was thinking the same thing when I had read that comment but didn’t say anything, but since you did, so will I! :D</p>

<p>My non-MT daughter played three varsity sports in high school (and was in performing arts too!) and excelled at them. She was also valedictorian of her class (and took the most rigorous courses available and went beyond those) and went to an Ivy League college where she participated all four years in a varsity sport but was NOT a recruited athlete. She went onto top graduate schools in the country in her field. She even coaches this sport at top colleges as a “side” thing.</p>

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<p>I think Flossy was referring to the football comparison. Football players at large D1 schools (Alabama, LSU, Michigan, OSU, etc) who get the scholarships are primarily not students. They train all day and travel and their classes are scheduled around the training schedule , not the other way around. Obviously there are exceptions.</p>

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<p>^^I assumed it was written tongue and cheek.</p>

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<p>LOL Flossy- I was just kidding. I have to admit we sometimes have that same perception. One Coach my son is talking to even made a comment along the lines of …“you won’t need any help filling out all of this paperwork- I worked with some football players last summer and some of them couldn’t even spell their own names…”</p>

<p>Sorry if I offended anyone by repeating this, as I know some very, very bright football players!!! I just think that since football is such a big money-maker at a lot of schools, they do tend to stretch the academic acceptance rules at times.</p>

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<p>Sheesh! It was a joke and it was specifically about the football comparison. I also know many bright athletic kids.</p>

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<p>Anyone who saw/heard/read the 49ers’ Chris Culliver interview today will know that to be very true.</p>