admissions "hot spots" spread

Parent Cafe
61

<p>Not so fast. That ain't all you said, now is it? ;)
[quote]
The reality of $50,000 per year will deflate this bubble rather quickly. In reality there are only about 20 schools that will produce the vast majority of all the Rhodes, Marshalls, foreign Service officers, investment bankers, top 25 big firm lawyers, cia agents, NIH grant winners, doctors etc. **These 20 schools have an important function in developing our national leadership and identifying true talent and are actually worth the price.<a href="%5Bi%5DThis%20means%20I%20assume%20that%20the%20others%20aren't%20worth%20the%20price?%5B/i%5D">/b</a></p>

<p>Beyond those 20, college becomes a commodity where one could substitute any of one hundred fifty names for any other 150. It is here that the bubble will hit since it is pure hype that is inflating the applications to this group. Amazingly, the key to the hype seems to be raising tuition to near the level of the top 20 so that anxiety prone parents think the commodity schools are worth the exhorbitant price. The extra tuition is used for a relatively small amount of merit aid which is pursued by many that further fuels the fire. Well, people are seeing thtough this now and in an era where defined benefit pensions are being eliminated and health care is going to Mars, parents, particularly the ones paying the full $45,000 freight, will just say no. This will actually be to the benefit of the public college and community college systems as they are on the cusp of an era of vast improvement.

[/quote]
Stick to your guns. Have some staying power. Don't back up from your words now. You'll look like a sand crab on meth.</p>

<p>Do you believe this or do you not? Seems to me you diss everything but twenty schools. Which twenty and why won't you tell us? I assume it does not include G'town, does it?</p>

<p>How is this anything but an insult? </p>

<p>
[quote]
Beyond those 20, college becomes a commodity where one could substitute any of one hundred fifty names for any other 150.

[/quote]
So Colgate is Southern Illinois State, U of Texas is Texas State and Rutgers is Utah Tech? Is that about it? Outside of your top twenty , who cares?</p>

62

<p>Absolutely, the value proposition holds. We are in a world of $50,000 per year. That is whole lot different than even five years ago. Marginal differences between schools do not offset large differences in costs when there are not large differences in outcomes. Thats my opinion, Its obviously not yours but, fine this is America.</p>

<p>Which is to say that if we were in a $30,000 world ( if costs had kept pace or only equalled inflation the last 10-12 years or so) marginal differences would make a difference in the value equation.</p>

63

<p>


Absolutely correct. </p>

<p>viennaman , then how do you explain your success from such a lesser , clearly poor value school?</p>

<p>And for the what must be 5th time , where's your list of 12 and 20?</p>

<p>BTW , did you even apply to any TOP 12 schools? What went wrong?</p>

<p>
[quote]
These 20 schools have an important function in developing our national leadership and identifying true talent and are actually worth the price.

[/quote]
Do you really believe this? How sad that you are so tied up on prestige and rankings that you can't even respect your own alma mater simply because it didn't make some list.</p>

<p>Heck, my alma mater is in the 50-100 range and I respect my education.</p>

64

<p>Thanks for making me reflect on my life to this point. I guess this is what Thanksgiving weekends are for.</p>

<p>If I had to pinpoint it, I think my experiences in the Boy Scouts had a lot to do with my success. It took me many years to attain the Eagle award but the unique life and leadership experiences from it were definitely worthwhile and have as much to do with my success as my education.</p>

65

<p>Congrats. The Eagle is a big deal . A very worthy accomplishment. Shows commitment and discipline. I'd rank it high.</p>

<p>And BTW, I think GT is marvelous school. The clear equal of many ranked higher. I bet you were prepared very well for grad school, just like kids from Centre and USC and University of Texas and Occidental and Wisconsin and Oberlin.</p>

66

<p>Sand crab on meth....LOL...I don't know where you went to school cur, but man alive--you sure know how to skewer the English language...</p>

<p>vienna man--hold your ground. Yours isn't an especially popular POV, here in on CC Bubble Street, but your data might shape up into a clarifying point if you keep crunching.</p>

67

<p>Curmudgeon's critiscisms may be crusty but his witticisms and sharp barbs make darn good points that are directly related to the topic of this thread. Most people, on and off CC put a different kind of value on post-secondary education and do not hold that "marginal differences between schools do not offset large differences in costs when there are not large differences in outcomes." This POV is worth repeating because it fuels the fires of the admission frenzy. The message is "Ivy or Bust". The 4 year college "investment" is "logically" analyzed in terms of money in and money out to come to the conclusion that "lower" ranked colleges are not just worth the investment of time, effort, and money. Obviously from that point of view any college will give the benefit of a higher paycheck - but not just any college will give the best education - and thankfully in America, this is a matter of choice and a highly personal one at that. I know parents of students who were and are willing to pay full sticker price for Harvard and Princeton but I also know families who are willing to pay full price for Hobart and William Smith, Swarthmore, Middlebury, Franklin and Marshall, Notre Dame and the list could on and on. Whether the choice is a four year liberal arts education (at an Ivy, a LAC, or a research university) or for pre-professional training programs in pre-med, pre-law or international relations, this is at its best a highly personal decision that students should make on the basis of a college's programs and faculty, and even campus culture - not merely on a list ranking power, influence, and prestige. As I mentioned in a previous post on this thread, Princeton administrators strongly advise that students who are merely looking for a "payback" in terms of money and prestige ought to look elsewhere than Nassau Hall. </p>

<p>Most of the people I know who share Vienna Man's kind of thinking are European - most often students (or their practical minded parents who foot the bill for their education) will opt for prestige and pragmatic payback when choosing a school or program - a prime example is Ponts et Chausse for engineering in France because grads get snapped up for prime positions in the work world. </p>

<p>The range of educational opportunities in the U.S. are simply phenomenal and offer an incredible choice of programs as well as campus culture. Just by way of illustration, even a quick look at Georgetown's stellar faculty will show that professors at this top college benefitted from a wide range of educational opportunities, both public and private, such as: the Univ. of Houston, UCLA, Bowdoin, U. Conn, Middlebury, the College of William and Mary, Brown, Univ. of Michigan, James Madison University, University of Illinois, Pomona, Boston University ...</p>

68

<p>I’ve actually wondered for years what VM has mentioned out loud. (The value aspect.) However, I’ve come to appreciate that the supposedly (in some cases?) “overvalued” institutions perform an important function, & thus in fact provide “value.”</p>

<p>Mind you, when I speak of “overvalued,” I am not necessarily referring to any of the colleges & U’s already named on this thread – a few of which I have zero to small knowledge of. I’m speaking of ones in my region which seem to fit the category VM may have in mind: ie.., glorified community colleges. Some of these, btw, were once highly respected 4-year institutions whose undergrad, grad, & law schools produced graduates of national prominence in their various fields. Now the freshman classes of these same institutions mostly consist of h.s. seniors with mediocre records, who cannot make it into flagship publics. Secondarily, the freshman classes contain some better-than-average students who, because of very stiff entrance or eligibility standards, do not quite make the cut for the top public U’s, partly because of the diversity component in admissions to many public U’s. Thirdly, the freshman classes include a percentage of stand-out students relative to their own high schools but not relative to the national competition for top 20 colleges & U’s.</p>

<p>Taking just these 3 segments all together, the high-priced but non-stand-out privates serve a number of niches & needs:</p>

<p>--They’re 4-yrs versus 2-yrs. That means the student will be studying only or mostly with age-peers – a major consideration to many people. Secondly, they will also be getting “a college experience,” versus “taking classes.” Thirdly, for students such as those with LD (& others with ADD), a structured 4-yr college can be anywhere from helpful to essential to their academic success & continued motivation.</p>

<p>--They’re privates. Sounds like a big Duh, I know. But that’s important to a lot of people: particularly to those disappointed by a previous public high school, a private can provide the support & personal aspects that their h.s. never did. For those most comfortable with a history of private education (typically, in Catholic schools, for example), that continuity is important, and is more important than what outsiders perceive to be the institution’s (current) academic quality.</p>

<p>--For excellent, but not superlative, Caucasian students without hooks, a private of this type is often the best admission option that they have, at least in their region. In our State, if you do not have economic or other challenges & are not an underrepresented minority, you must have an exceptional h.s. record & stats to enter the flagship publics. If you are top 12%, for example, that is generally not enough for someone without categorized challenges or hooks. While these private institutions are definitely not of the caliber of the flagship public research universities, they are better than most of the options in the State University system –with the exception of 2 or 3 (in our case).</p>

<p>--Most importantly, some of these institutions, in an effort to attract excellent students, offer extremely generous merit aid, offsetting their “over-priced” tuition. Categories like “Presidential Scholarships” provide full or nearly full tuition grants; categories just below these offer handsome enticements as well, & even these 3/4 or 1/2 offers sometimes amount to less than the cost of the flagship publics. For those students who do qualify for those publics but whose family does not have or does not choose to pay full public tuition (& does not qualify for need aid), these merit offers are seen as “value.”</p>

<p>Personally, I’m strongly biased toward academic quality as the primary value, but I do realize that value is a matter of perception & priorities. It seems that overwhelmingly, students making the above choices are making regional choices more than anything else. Occasionally, a student will travel to an “unknown” private for some specialty academic reason, but generally, the enrollment of these colleges is overwhelmingly local. The student is choosing not to have to add travel costs to college costs, is choosing known weather over non-known weather, and/or is choosing proximity to family, friends, even jobs, as higher “values.” Not my priorities. But it’s not my tuition bill, either.</p>

69

<p>If VM is really talikng about 20 or even 200 colleges as the only acceptable ones, he is not talking about "glorified community colleges". And this is no slur on community colleges that produce some of the best students and citizens around.</p>

<p>I just spent the WE with one of the smartest people I know. Went to Exeter, then Brown, then Harvard in theoretical physics and is doing post-doc work at Stanford. OK, what does he know?? He said his GC at Exteter gave him terrible advice. What was it? To go to Harvard. He ignored her advice and went to Brown. He said he was on the faculty at Harvard (as a TA) and he could see that the undergraduates were being short-changed, both with faculty and advising. Anyone can disagree with this in any way, but he was there...recently...</p>

70

<p>Cur,
There is no Utah Tech! ;)</p>

<p>(And, FWIW, my dad went to the U of Utah for MechE and got a fine education).</p>

71

<p>I hate to say it, but I also see some value in VM's line of thought. Not because I believe that there are only 20 schools worth going to, but because I do agree with him that some people are paying inflated prices based on false assumptions about what constitutes educational quality. It seems that some people have decided that the only measures of educational quality that matter are (1) how many applicants the school rejects (2) how well-known the school's name is and (3) how many graduates get jobs on wall street or become Rhodes Scholars or learn to yodel, even if you have any such plans yourself. I think part of this lies in the college marketing machine that tells us all that a particular subset of characteristics are the only educational factors that matter. Like a lot of marketing, you try to get the prospective customer so focused on the intangible benefits that they ignore the differences that really don't exist.</p>

<p>In truth, as Asteriska points out, the educational value derived from any institution is much more individualized. An institution that serves student A well may be a total waste of money for student B. Different students have different strengths/weaknesses/needs/expectations, and the key to determining any particular institution's value is how well those match up with the services offered by the institution. There's also a matter of inputs vs. outputs: Does the student come out better educated/talented/prepared than they went in? Ultimately, I guess that is where one has to make the value judgment about whether any student is paying too much or too little for their education. </p>

<p>So, yes, I agree with VM on some level: Some families are definitely paying way too much because they're looking at the wrong measures of educational value, not the ones that matter on an individual basis. However, statements such as there only being a certain number of colleges/universities "worth" the money...well, again, it comes back to how well a particular school meets an individual student's educational needs, and the individual's valuation on that exchange.</p>

72

<p>As usual, Carolyn and Asteriskea have both nailed it. The educational value is in having the school fit the student. The problem is with generalizations and hearsay on both sides. There is no winner here.</p>

<p>Undergraduates are not being shortchanged at Harvard. That is a myth that is continually perpetuated on this forum and elsewhere. My daughter, who is currently an undergrad, is still pinching herself to see if she is really there. There are opportunities galore... inside and outside of the classroom. Harvard students are busy ... in activities that don't exist in many schools. No, Harvard does not have the small, nurturing atmosphere of a LAC. My child does not need that, nor do most students there. You've heard that it's not a hand-holding school? Very true. The advising does leave a lot to be desired ... though most students are resourceful enough to talk to upperclassmen and proctors and utilize other resources. The biggest problem is that there are too many courses to choose from. And by the way, Harvard College is a liberal arts school, though students may take courses at Harvard University's graduate schools if they like.</p>

<p>On the other hand, my son who is at a top twenty LAC, is on top of the world too. If he has a question, his professors generally email him back within the hour. He has no TAs. His courses are absolutely intriguing. His advisor is fantastic. But make no mistake. One school is no easier than the other. Both of my kids are working equally hard. (No, it's not true that once you're in ... it's easy ...) </p>

<p>Both have professors that they like and professors that they are not enamored with. Both are equally happy, because each made the right choice ... both could see themselves nowhere else. In three short months, I can see how each of them have blossomed. Both are happier than they've ever been in their lives. That, to me, clinches the educational value.</p>

<p>Oh, and for the record, I am paying almost exactly the same amount of money for both schools. Worth every penny, in both cases.</p>

73

<p>


I have no idea what you are making reference to with "generalizations and hearsay " or even "sides" but I will assume it has nothing to do with my posts. I trust that you'll tell me if I'm wrong. ;)</p>

<p>Nobody accepted vienna man's Top 12 or Top 20 and then fall off a cliff argument. That was a clear loser. </p>

<p>Nothing carolyn said or *kia said in any way supported that ridiculous argument. Nothing in either of their posts contradicted anything I said.</p>

74

<p>curmudgeon, I thought the same thing. Still want that top 12 or 20 list, too. Hope Vienna man gets it out before this years seniors miss the application deadlines!</p>

75

<p>Curm ... Are you kidding? I'd be nuts to argue with you ... besides, I almost always agree with you. ;) No, this has absolutely nothing to do with your posts at all. I was referring to the post where someone was told by someone else (hearsay) that undergrads were being shortchanged at Harvard ... and basically, thank goodness that he didn't choose to spend his undergrad years there. I just find that some people are real Ivy or top university advocates, and others go on and on that the only true value in education is in LACs. My point (which unfortunately wasn't too clear, I guess) is that it's all about fit for the particular student ... that's what denotes value. Maybe I'm on the wrong thread.</p>

76

<p>As usual we have multi-channel threads. That's why I was checking. As has been oft quoted on these boards , it's a great deal like herding cats around here. LOL. </p>

<p>As to Harvard bashers, I agree with your position.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I just find that some people are real Ivy or top university advocates, and others go on and on that the only true value in education is in LACs.

[/quote]
If these are the two sides , I'm squarely in the middle, advocating for both in a proper situation. LOL.</p>

77

<p>Herding cats????</p>

<p>Yep, those are the two sides, and I'm advocating for both. </p>

<p>It's a good thing I'm not an attorney. It took me waaay too long on this thread to make my point. I think I'll go contemplate dinner.</p>

78

<p>Sometimes you'll start a thread about Christmas trees. The next thing you know someone's remembering some Christmas with a father at war so off we go to Iraq and a discussion of what bogged us down. Then we go to legitmacy of government action and we're back in Florida with "chad" (the hanging kind). Three posts later someone's got a favorite recipe to share that they stole from recently deceased Ed Bradley. All the while the poor OP is still trying their best to find a 10' flocked tree for under $200.</p>

<p>It's a lot like herding cats. (Cat's won't herd and neither will the folks on this board. It seems we are incapable of staying on topic, leading to miscommunication. I'm as guilty as anybody. ;))</p>

79

<p>That was me who said some undergrads might be shortchanged at Harvard. And it's true. Maybe those kids, however high-powered, wouldn't be accepted; I don't know. My point is not that Harvard isn't a GREAT school. Obviously it is. My point is that it's not a great match for everyone. And small LACs might be a way better match for some kids, even some very high-stat, high-powered kids and state Uni's might be better for others. As a psychologist, I've seen kids crippled by their parents' Ivy obsession; it is not pretty and it can lead to depression and suicide. The Ivies are all great schools, but there are hundreds of other great schools out there that are worth full price to some of us and are NOT inferior to HYP, just different.</p>

<p>Kids (and their parents) going to the Ivies never have to encounter the blank stares, like, "Why isn't he going to a real school; I thought he was a good student?". Think about it.</p>

80

<p>


I agree with this , too. It's a banner day. ;)</p>