<p>I always enjoy hearing what the admissions reps have been saying at these info sessions. I did think the comment about the community college classes in lieu of APs available at one's school was an interesting one, as well as the fact that one rep was negative on summer school classes if they are seen as making for an easier schedule during the year.</p>
<p>The story of the student who put down more hours than are in a week was funny and makes me realize all over again what a good idea it always is to submit an activities sheet to teachers and GCs before they write the recs. </p>
<p>Interesting perspective on the way the recentering of the SATs in 1995 changed the landscape and the fact that the average GPA has gone up a full point in the last 15 years!</p>
<p>I laughed at the story of the kid who wanted to go to BU!</p>
<p>Post by Adofficer, On the Deferred from Tufts thread in the College admissions forum:</p>
<p>
[quote]
we had one student last year try to get out of her ED contract because we offered her no financial aid...her parental income was $735,000/year...turned out she just wanted to go to BU (which, quite frankly, is not one of our peer institutions) because they gave her a full ride. </p>
<p>I do realize that not everyone is "playing the system," but many are and it is quite disheartening. I just had to call up a student and tell her that she is no longer going to be considered for admission because she lied about her extracurricular involvements on the common application...we found out after I read her interview write-up, in which the interviewer provided very detailed information about her EC involvement and the time she spent on her activities. I called the school and they told me what she put on her common app. was impossible. I also had to call another student last week and do the same, but in that case, the student claimed to be Hispanic but was not...the only reason I even mentioned it to his guidance counselor (who happened to randomly call me to check on the receipt status of another student's recs) was because he (the student) called himself "a skinny white boy" in his essay; the counselor was shocked that the kid identified as such as she knows him and his family very, very well. I've also run into a number of cases of wealthy families hiring very devious accountants who basically hide all their assets and income so that they can qualify for need-based financial aid
<p>
[quote]
Admissions officers said a recommendation letter describing a student as diligent and hardworking is the kiss of death. This wouldn't be the case at less selective schools, but schools like Stanford, Penn, Duke and Pomona are looking for students who are excited about learning and who have made an impact, contributing both in class and in extracurricular activities.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>For the life of me, I don't see why a student cannot be 'diligent and hardworking' AND 'excited about learning', nor do I think diligence is inconsistent with contributions to class and extracurricular activities. I hope gc all over the country are informed that 'diligent' has been redefined by admissions staffers.</p>
<p>On the other hand, perhaps my son's insistence on all-out devotion to one of his ecs last fall, as the expense of his grades, will be seen as a positive thing by scholarship selection committees. (You think?? NO)</p>
<p>Midmo, I agree with you that these are not mutually exclusive! Ultimately, these admissions offices need some way to distinguish between many qualified students. An astute GC will know all the requisite buzz words. Unfortunately, many less astute ones will not. In that case, one can only hope that the student's "passion" and intellectual curiosity speak for themselves by way of his or her activities, interviews, essays etc.</p>
<p>midmo, I agree. Kids who are excited & inspired usually DO work hard, right? They just don't consider this hard work to be drudgery. Do you know if your son's GC falls into the "astute" camp or the "clueless" camp?</p>
Read: A student from a school with adept counselors who oft times deal with super selective schools (like those GC's found at prep schools and large well respected suburban public schools) has a distinct and tremendously unfair advantage over kids from inner city , rural, small town, and inexperienced or low performing schools wheresoever situate, when it comes to rec's and evaluations. </p>
<p>That is abhorrent. </p>
<p>As a parent of a kid from a school that has never in it's 100+ years of existence had a student accepted to an Ivy League college (and probably not to any super selective) , I took it upon myself to reprint stories like this and have D distribute them to rec writers and I took them to the GC myself to stress the importance of "magic words". Several colleges also have their own GC rec forms which effectively ask "how does this kid excel" . The choices range from "by dint of hard work" to "osmosis" to "sheer brilliance the like of which the world has never seen before". Nowhere does it say you can make multiple choices. ;) </p>
<p>I wrote about this several times after "finding out". A search should find those threads.</p>
<p>I agree with midmo.</p>
<p>Edit: p.s.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Ultimately, these admissions offices need some way to distinguish between many qualified students.
[/quote]
The problem is, Roshke, this may be the most ignorant and elitist way possible to differentiate.</p>
<p>Parents need to be very proactive about this. I have met with a school board member at our district and am trying to implement a rec writing seminar for teachers and the GC. Not exactly getting a standing ovation, but they are listening.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Do you know if your son's GC falls into the "astute" camp or the "clueless" camp?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>You know, I don't have a good feeling about it. Son's school sends an occasional student to elite schools, but most of the good students go to the state flagship. Son's biggest ec, in terms of time and effort, is a very unusual one; he helps run a district-wide program (serving kids from middle and junior high as well as high school) that simulates NASA missions. It has required a huge time committment, travel, unusual level of responsibility since the supervising teacher got sent to Iraq last May, has involved learning programming on his own, and he has been in charge of television production for the program for two years. When I tried to gently inquire of the gc if she had emphasized the leadership aspect of his role, she was very offended and informed me that she "was very experienced at describing the program." Let us hope so, because I doubt that S did, and we didn't want to bother the teacher in Iraq, figuring he had bigger things to worry about.</p>
<p>This is a huge public school, biggest in the state, and the counselors have a lot on their plates. I know the gc thinks a lot of S, but I doubt that she really knows what top schools want to know.</p>
<p>Can someone explain to me what is meant by the code words "diligent" and "hardworking?" Why are those words the kiss of death? Do all letter writers know not to use those words? If I were writing a letter for one of my music students, I wouldn't know not to use them.</p>
<p>When I read about the kid who wanted to go to BU because it's a member of the "I.V. League" I laughed outloud.</p>
<p>Years ago (1989) I was leaving a job as an accountant to move a few hundred miles away, and the CFO asked me to do the interviewing to fill my position. I was showered with promising resumes and contacted the 5 most likely canditates. During one of the interviews I asked the person if they had any experience with computerized spreadsheets (I was, and still am, a wiz at them), "Oh yes!" she exclaimed, "I'm very well versed in Lotus. One, two AND three!" Needless to say she didn't get the job.</p>
<p>Even after my efforts at "magic words " education, I came to the conclusion that D's rec's were so bad they were good (at least the ones I saw). Words spelled wrong, no effort at grammar, poor penmanship (or typing) ....well, you get the picture. I always felt that any plus D had coming from Hooterville was shored up by the illiteracy of the rec writers. In the sense of "Jeez. It's a wonder this kid could pass AP English Lit., much less make a <em>very high score</em> on the English section of the ACT". </p>
<p>Hey, it may not have been true, but it kept me warm at night. ;)</p>
<p>Edit: As an example that did NOT happen but could have : "Best science student we had have sense 1995."</p>
<p>I suspect the statement that "diligent and hardworking" is the kiss of death was a bit of hyperbole. But what probably stands behind it is this: the top colleges want people who are brilliant AND leaders AND hard workers. When someone is all three of those, the last quality (which is the least rare of the three) is seldom the first mentioned by people describing him or her. And I'm sure that in lots of schools (a) diligence and hard work are valued above brilliance, and (b) the curriculum is not so challenging that you can sort out the brilliant slackers, the brilliant hardworkers, and the pedestrian hardworkers by looking at their grades.</p>
<p>From the standpoint of HYP, it should be easy to tell if someone is hardworking -- you look at what they have accomplished, not just in the classroom, but outside of it, too. And really accomplished, not just had their name on the roster. If they are really brilliant, they will have had plenty of time to do that and schoolwork, too. But even then, some drones will look the same. You want to know whether people around a particular kid think he sparkles from genius or sweat. You also figure that, whatever they did in high school, everyone at a top college is going to be working hard, and if a kid doesn't have the intellectual goods he is going to be left in the dust.</p>
<p>(I'm not endorsing this position, just speculating on what it might be. My guess is that this attitude does exist, but that somewhat sub-brilliant tireless leaders get respect as well.)</p>
<p>The adcoms said exactly what they want. They want intellectually curious people. I have a friend who is an adcom (to say the least) for a graduate school and the first thing she told me about admissions was she wants intellectually curious people.</p>
<p>Curmudgeon, things must be much better sense your daughter graduated high school.</p>
<p>It is sad that the admissions race has come to this-If all the parents and/or students move to coach unindoctrinated GC's and teachers, then all of the 'new buzzwords' will eventually become commonplace (read: commonplace kids) and there will be new words and comparisons, etc, and eventually they will have exhausted the dictionary! As sorry as I feel for our kids going through this, I feel for the adults that we are forced to rely on. Yes, it is their job to keep up with the latest, etc. But does the average public school GC have this gift of time? I'm not sure. My D's large public school has this same problem. I only read one LOR, and I knew this person was trying to convey that D was the real deal. But it read to me like a term paper a kid will write using the Thesaurus to bump up their 'vocabulary'. An honest, heartfelt LOR is no longer enough. Although, I must admit, I am fairly surprised by the lack of sophistication in regard to college apps around here, our family has had the rare luxury of enjoying HS as it was once meant to be. There is no 'frenzy' here, the kids pretty much research schools and apply to those they love. A few reach for the top players, and a few make it. But it's almost as if the outside world hasn't reached in yet to cause the insanity that is prevelent in so many parts of the country. So, when I find myself worrying about the poorly worded recs that were undoubtedly sent out, I rein myself in and try to be happy that we avoided the rat race and have happy relaxed kids. Ignorance, in this case, has been bliss. It took me awhile to see this, and even longer to come to terms with it, but for us, it's ok. April 1st we may be the only family around waiting anxiously for thick envelopes, but all in all, in the long run, I think things worked out well. (This is also my youngest, so I don't have to go through this again!!!!! Yay!!!!!LOL!)</p>
The main problem I have with this is that the people writing the rec's may not be brilliant themselves nor have the capacity to recognize brilliance. While you have some discretion in choosing your rec's from among your teachers , that GC is your GC. </p>
<p>A secondary problem is that some kids feign a persona of brilliance when in fact they are like a duck, paddling underwater as hard as they can to stay afloat. My D was in the val race (Yes. We race in Texas. There is cash involved.) with a young man who would constantly suggest that he didn't "study" for the tests yet always made an A. Everybody bought it until a family member let slip that he hadn't been to sleep before 2:00 a.m. in weeks trying to stay up with her. LOL. Made my kid feel a lot better that he was working hard, too.</p>