<p>Cur: I agree. But as your story showed, there may be more than one way to skin a cat. For admissions officers, it's probably easy as pie to take the word of the GCs at Exeter about how to rank the 50 or so kids who are applying from there, of whom you're going to accept 25, and everyone is using the same code. But the big thrill comes from discovering some gem at the Worst Little High School in Texas, where the teachers cain't evun spel.</p>
<p>I know at my kids' school, which does have a history of getting kids into brand name colleges, although not by the dozens, and has more than one Nobelist on its alumni wall, the GC recommendations for the top students have to be nearly meaningless to the college. The GC doesn't spend time with them -- that's not his job. If he does talk to them, he suggests that they apply to a LAC (his daughter went to Oberlin), and then they don't. He's checking the boxes regarding course selection, and attaching a bunch of information they already know. It may not help any kids get in, but it's not keeping them out, either.</p>
<p>
[quote]
But the big thrill comes from discovering some gem at the Worst Little High School in Texas, where the teachers cain't evun spel.
[/quote]
Before someone from D's school shoots me, her school did a fine job educating her and we are proud of them. But, the truth is they don't have the foggiest idea what it takes to get a kid into Harvard. Last year D and her compadre presented the GC with a Yale and a Princeton pennant (she tapes them to the wall).</p>
<p>p.s. And my point was not that they can't spell. D (and W for that matter) can't spell Cat if you spot her the C and the T. LOL. My point was the rec writers didn't even check their spelling.</p>
<p>Curmudgeon, I think you made an excellent contribution to your school's culture. The HS where my eldest 2 attended was in a poverty/crime demographic although rural. The needs of a handful of kids with educated parents were not as front-burner as those where kids needed help staying alive. The GC's spent most weekends on phones and in person, coping with jail issues/domestic abuse/social work interventioins for the parents or the students, arriving at school Monday mornings looking like they'd spent their weekend in hell.
I almost felt silly asking my questions to guide my kids to a list of 6 selective colleges. Being part of the same community, I wanted the GC's to help the MOST needful kids, which weren't mine except on some key deadline Fridays. They didn't know my kids inside-out but seemed just relieved and grateful that they were on-the-scene at the high school. That's not the stuff of an in-depth Lettter of Rec. For such students, the teachers knew them much better. Happy results: both ended up at selective schools with "right fits" for each of them. Our next child wouldn't deal with his GC much; said we did better research from home. CC rules.
Code or buzz words let the teacher say positive things but one has to read between the lines or let one's intuition flow to know what isn't being said. It starts on First Grade report cards (the grade I taught), "Jasmine is gradually improving her skills" isn't a good report; rather it's "Heads-UP" to next year's teacher that she starts behind the others and moves at snail-like pace to learn new concepts. "Jasmine makes rapid progress and excels at new concepts, often helping others in his learning group" is top-shelf, showing internal motivation to learn, intellectural curiosity and leadership.
But if you "tell it like it is" the parents become furious at the child, teacher and school which is not productive, either.
Anyway, please don't let me hijack this into Elementary School talk; was just musing. Honestly, I'm more interested in everyone's thoughts re: how to improve the Letter of Rec situation as Curmudgeon stimulated at his h.s.
(and you KNOW they miss you, Cur!!)</p>
<p>As one who has been asked to write a lot of recommends for students who want to go to top schools, let me see if I can help on "the buzz words". First there are a lot of great students. I especially like the ones who have worked hard to succeed in a tough class. Their absolute learning may have been much greater than a kid who comes in and can sleep through class and get a 'A'. Remember that an AP class, for example, may have a fair number of 'A' students who ask a teacher to write recomendations to the same college. So how does one distinguish between them? Top schools ask that the teacher o also fill out the matrix that shows something like "average", "top 10%" and best you ever seen in many categories. I know teachers who will check off the top boxes for every student and ask students to write the letter part and then the teacher says stellar things about them all. Good schools know these teachers and ignore what they write. I do think it is important to write positives about each student and to try to explain why the student might succeed or benefit from being at a college. I actaully have kept track of those little boxes and thus have only had "one of the best" a few times. It is really as much about what you do not say as what you do say that counts. Often one looks at a good, hard working, bright student and has trouble adding anything else. When that is all you say it is a flag that the student is good but does not stand out. It is when you can add something about what makes the student tick, his passion, his way of solving problens, his creativity, his leadership that when added to being a hard worker separates that person from the others. The goal is to try to paint a mental image of the student to the committee that can go along with the students essays etc. to give a complete idea of who this is and how that person might be an asset to the admitted pool. I will say, often teachers do not argue as well for the "diamonds in the rough" as I think they should. For the great student I will say this : "You may not be able to define them exactly but you know them when you have them in class". Unfortunately "hard working" seems to be the base line and it is assumed that any good student can do that if necessary.</p>
<p>Actually, none that I've heard about in 28 years...but very small school. (Average graduating class over last 28 years is probably around 25...including one class that was 13.) I do know of 2 who went to Harvard for Law school, but no under grads. We do however, have a music teacher who has an excellent set of rec letters that he tweaks to fit the students requests...the first thing he does is show the student all 5 versions and asks which type they'd prefer. Yes, there's one that refers to hardworking & diligent, but there are also choices that emphasize leadership & volunteerism, creative approaches to learning or helping, etc. His recs are actually much better than the GC's and the principals...too bad more kids don't realize it and ask for them.</p>
<p>I know that counselors go to conventions and the like a couple of times a year. But i discovered tht many of the 'workshops' are optional, and probably many GCs think they don't need the basic skills lessons. Much of the time I'm sure it's been on the job training - as they speak with more and more college adcoms on behalf of students, they learn what's required to get their charges into selective schools. But the poor GC who only has a child vying for the top names every few years or so, they are bound to be lost. I like that parents drop off articles, books, etc. Some of them just don't know, and can learn a lot from one or two timely articles. It may even spark their interest, who knows? They may take it wrong, but you know what? Who cares? There are some very helpful and realistic books written about the college search and application process. I scanned D's GC's bookshelves, and there was not one book on the subject. There should at least be some required reading, something to keep all GC's up to date, etc. With entrance into even State flagships becoming less and less of a sure thing these days, seems like every school in every state would benefit from well versed GC's.</p>
<p>"The goal is to try to paint a mental image of the student...."
I couldn't agree more. Painting a picture of the student includes how they think, how they handle situations, how they approach problems and setbacks. I think that it is very difficult to do this and most recs just are not very descriptive even when the writer tries. I never saw any of my D's recs, but I know she had at least one that was very good. After one interview by a faculty member, she was told that she was just like the letter of rec. Of course, that was kind of backwards, but it does show that a well written rec can indeed paint a picture and can be a big advantage.</p>
<p>My D goes to a wonderful school & is receiving a great education. Students from her school are accepted to ivies & other selective colleges, although relatively few apply (because in these parts, the state flagship U is sort of a god). She is very fortunate, because her counselor is really on the ball as far as putting together a good rec. However, the head of the counseling dept. is pretty clueless. At our junior parent night last spring, I ended up staying & talking to a mom who had asked questions about getting into top schools. The info the counselor gave in her presentation was just not complete ... I had to keep biting my tongue so I wouldn't point out that what she said was right, BUT ... not everyone is applying to U of our state!</p>
<p>My H and I had the yearly GC visit just today with our sophomore son. Large public, most kids going to flagship U.</p>
<p>Since I have fallen into being the designated parent for thinking about these things, and thanks to CC helping with info for our freshman dd's college search and selection experience, I called a 'pre-GC visit agenda' meeting with my H where I basically prepped him by saying:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>"Let ds do most of the talking"</p></li>
<li><p>"the first priority for this GC visit is that ds needs to come out of it with a non-screwed up schedule for first semester junior year."</p></li>
</ol>
<p>3."ds needs to see his transcript so far to correct the errors"</p>
<ol>
<li><p>"if ds asks about the summer program he was interested in doing, don't blow a gasket if GC knows nothing about the summer programs in the brochures on the desk"</p></li>
<li><p>"when GC doesn't know about ds's PSAT scores, or that he even took them, don't spout your loud sigh!"</p></li>
<li><p>"same as 1."</p></li>
</ol>
<p>And that's exactly how the GC visit went- nothing more, nothing less.</p>
<p>Now I love curmudgeon's approach to educating re: rec letter writing. I plan on making my H the designated parent on THAT one! :)</p>
<p>"Can someone explain to me what is meant by the code words "diligent" and "hardworking?""</p>
<p>I think that what schools sense in such letters is that the teacher is trying hard to say nice things about a good kid who has a positive attitude but no remarkable abilities. If the teacher can't, in all honesty, describe the student as "perceptive," "clever," "insightful," etc., well, diligent and hardworking may be the most positive descriptors the teacher can find. </p>
<p>If the "brilliant" student is also lazy and doesn't bother to turn things in on time, most teachers will mention that fact, if it isn't already obvious from the grades.</p>
<p>Of course, you can't count on teachers to know what they're doing. But I suspect that when the adcoms refer to the "kiss of death," they're talking about kids from good high schools that regularly send kids to Tufts and the like. I hope, and generally believe, that they take it into account when they read recommendations from the science teacher/4H advisor/basketball coach at (as another poster put it) Hooterville High.</p>
<p>Maybe that's why so many people say "I just don't get it" with abstract art: we all need a picture that makes us feel we know the story about the person or scene. That's what I like about the music teach's form-letter recs...they give the student the choice of which picture to present (a lot of times the kids are savvy as to what's needed, too: he says he can usually predict which version they'll lean towards when he finds out where the letter is going.) They're not total form letters, more like form outlines...bullet points with the key words or concepts that should fit in that section of the letter and he fills in the details. BTW, he originally received the forms from a former principal who had attended many, many workshops on effective communication, admin, etc. (actually, too many, as it turns out: very well educated as an administrator but not much on daily biz of running school!)</p>
<p>I mean that there are plenty of teachers out there who have absolutely no clue how to write an effective letter of recommendation to a highly selective college.</p>
<p>As for the second phrase, teachers at those schools are much more likely to know the "code words" highly selective colleges look for. Teachers at rural or inner-city high schools that usually send the top 10% to instate public schools may never have had occasion to write one of those letters, much less observe across years of applicants which letters get the kids into Tufts and which don't.</p>
<p>...and mother of 4 grads from Hooterville High: Hanna is 100% correct: the small & rurals tend to have few people with any experience at writing recs for anything more than the kid's local 4H or VFW $500 scholarship application - maybe 1 paragraph needed. And people I know with kids in more select high schools who do send large numbers to Ivies & Tier 1's also say the same: savvy parents/kids find out who to get the letters from - network in advance, don't procrastinate on this one...and ask for the letters to be given to you before sending them!!! Know of at least one kid who was mortified at what a terrible rec letter a very beloved teacher sent...wonderful, caring, skilled, and intelligent science teacher but gifted at spoken word only: writing skills were horrible, well-meant, but not pretty (actually, barely readable- that bad.) Luckily, with his other recs included he still made it...but holy moly, did he sweat it for awhile.</p>
<p>S2 has MIT as his first choice so far, and we are very fortunate that he is in a state-run Governor's School which is still small enough for all faculty and administrators to really know (or at least know of) each and every student. </p>
<p>D1 on the other hand is at the local public HS, said to be one of the best in the state and in a nice middle/upper middle class area, usually sends one of a class of 400 to an ivy, maybe two dozen to our top two state schools, but when recently discussing her schedule for jr year, GC told D that one AP class was more than enough and had never heard that there were AP scholar distinctions given (not that that's important, but still, shouldn't she have known of this?). Thank heaven for CC and older brothers' fabulous guidance dept. She signed up for 3 AP's, although I pushed for more.</p>
<p>I think the bigger issue is that so many parents don't even begin to think of college until late in junior year. By then it's almost too late to learn the do's and dont's of the process. And of course, just as with teachers, the GCs are overworked, underpaid and underappreciated for the most part. D's school allows two applications per child! HA! I'll see how that goes this time two years from now.</p>
<p>yikes, sew busy, good luck working on that "two apps per child" restriction at your D's highschool!
Here's an approach...(i'm kidding, but): With "400 students total", the GC's could divide up 800 apps and expect to work on 800 apps. Of course, if some kids don't go to college, that would give the GC's time to help some kids with 6-8, which appears the norm for selective searches! There have been threads on this, "how many colleges are you applying to..."</p>
<p>Wow. My oldest son is in his second year of teaching HS lit in a large public HS. He teaches seniors, so he has been asked to write a number of recs for college admissions. I know this is one of the more stressful things he does!</p>
<p>I don't think I will show him this thread. He would not sleep for a week.</p>
<p>Last year there was a thread about words to avoid in recs. I can't remember its title in order to dig it out of the archives. Words like "hard-working, diligent" could come across as depicting a dull drudge of a student.</p>