Admit Rates, Standardized Test Averages, Cross Admit Results

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Chicago ✅
361

“Friend using the online college calculators said WashU estimated they the family would need $10,000 per year less in financial aid than the next stingiest college. Word from independent education consultants is that ED is really, really important there, as is visiting in person.”

  • WashU claims it meets "full demonstrated need" of ED admits - one always wonders how any college computes that number! UChicago Fin. Aid. told me a couple of years ago that the NPC calculators tend to run high on the net COA - those calculators are required by DOE and colleges err on the side of under-estimating, rather than overestimating, a family's award. Best bet is to speak to Fin. Aid directly at any college of interest. WashU is pretty clear that demonstrated interest is a consideration but they don't require the campus visit - a local admissions event will do as well. Not everyone can afford to travel.

CMU dropped demonstrated interest this year, in order to reach a broader category of applicant.

362

Holy cow! The most powerful negative criticism has come from the former presidents of Harvard and Princeton, who gave it a college try to eliminate all early admissions programs at selective institutions, starting with their own. Just for fun, here’s James Fallows seminal article on Early Decision from 18 years ago:

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2001/09/the-early-decision-racket/302280/

It feels like it could have been written yesterday, except for how low the “good” yields are, and how high the “low” admission rates.

As far as I know, no one has ever refuted or rebutted the criticisms of ED. That’s why Chicago never had ED until a few years ago. It was inhabiting its role as the paragon of what an elite American research university should be.

@surelyhuman : I don’t think there’s any question that the Zimmer free speech letter has been effective marketing to relatively conservative applicants. Several posts in this thread have said as much, comparing Chicago with various peers. But Chicago has long been the elite secular university that attracted the highest percentage of self-identified conservative undergraduates, so I don’t think much has changed.

That said, anyone too into their whiteness is not going to feel all that comfortable at Chicago. I don’t think that’s a characteristic of the student body as a whole at all, nor anything supported by the faculty (with the possible exception of Rachel Fulton Brown, who is something of a pariah and very whiny about it). (Come to think of it, Chicago may be the only elite university with someone like Brown as a tenured faculty member, so it could be uniquely attractive to white identitarians on that basis. I hope not.) There are plenty of non-white students at Chicago, and living in Hyde Park means constant reminders that in much of the world whiteness is the exception, not the rule. Chicago’s relative attractiveness to conservatives notwithstanding, I think the majority of students are as itchy to call people out on their white privilege as their counterparts at other elite universities are. And the conservatives at Chicago tend to be libertarians, not cultural conservatives; there is no sense there that anyone wants to bring back Dixie.

As far as Jewish students are concerned, Chicago’s Political Science Department is the home of John Mearsheimer, who is lionized there and pretty much reviled by mainstream Jewish organizations for his relentless criticisms of contemporary Israel and its supporters. And people may be interested in the very different treatments Rashid Khalidi and Nadia Abu El-Haj received at Chicago (where they were universally regarded as valued faculty) versus Columbia (where both have been isolated and under almost constant attack by Jewish organizations since their arrival there). Chicago is a perfectly comfortable place for Jewish students, but not necessarily for Jewish students unwilling to tolerate criticism of Israel.

363

@JHS - of course there has been criticism of ED from powerful corners. That hasn’t stopped schools from continuing to adopt this admissions plan. Fact: from the perspective of UChicago’s - or any other school’s - trustees, what Harvard or Princeton thinks simply may not carry the day. Colleges aren’t going to restrict themselves to fewer tools when the current set is working out for them and for their admits.

Also, the admissions environment is a tad different from 2001 - although the history of ED is an interesting read so thanks for that. There have been several recent articles on the pros and cons of ED. Here is one thoughtful reflection, written in the wake of BCs decision to introduce ED1 and ED2 beginning next year’s admission cycle: https://www.insidehighered.com/admissions/views/2019/02/18/boston-colleges-shift-early-admissions-raises-questions-about-practice

364

Thanks for the “fact.” Until two years ago, it used to be, prominently, what Chicago thought, along with MIT, Harvard, Princeton, Stanford, and Yale.

It’s upsetting to know that BC is joining the ED I-II world next year. I always thought that the prestige Catholic university bloc of Georgetown - BC - Notre Dame with their open EA policy (except no ED applications elsewhere) was a pretty reasonable, student friendly position if you weren’t going to adopt the Chicago - MIT open door. I got ridiculed here a few weeks ago for reporting my understanding that Harvard and Yale went to SCEA after they were overwhelmed with unrestricted EA applications when they first abandoned ED, so it’s interesting to know that the same thing happened to BC when they went unrestricted. It’s also interesting to see that BC is saying it will limit ED admissions to 40% of its class. Gosh, why would they do that?

I wouldn’t characterize that piece as “thoughtful,” though. It sort of waved at the standard criticisms of ED, and then sort of waved at the justifications. The most important one being, apparently, “the kids want it.” Which is very odd, because of something the author doesn’t bother to note: In general, EA colleges, even SCEA ones, tend to get a much higher number of early applications than similar colleges with ED do. And colleges with unrestricted EA get the most early applications of all – as BC apparently learned this year. It seems clear that kids like some form of early application program, but it also seems clear that the early application program they really like is EA, not ED. The Fallows piece was thoughtful

It would be interesting to know how many of Chicago’s early applications are ED and how many EA. I haven’t really followed numbers in recent years, but it used to be the case that among elite privates only Penn and Cornell got as many as 5,000 ED applications per year, while Chicago (with, then, lower overall applications) was getting 10,000+ EA applications, and MIT 8,000. Chicago’s early application numbers are still sky-high, but I wonder whether it is getting more ED applications than anyone else, or if it is still mainly getting EA applications.

365

“It’s upsetting to know that BC is joining the ED I-II world next year. I always thought that the prestige Catholic university bloc of Georgetown - BC - Notre Dame with their open EA policy (except no ED applications elsewhere) was a pretty reasonable, student friendly position if you weren’t going to adopt the Chicago - MIT open door.”

  • Ultimately it's a reflection of the changing environment. They say students were confused under the old REA, and they couldn't handle the huge volume of unrestricted EA - but who knows. That's probably the case. But they also cite student demand. Clearly there was more going on behind the decision.

By next year they will have tried pretty much every admissions plan out there (even - for the SCEA - completely inadvertently) so they will be the experts on what works best for them. I wonder what this means for the remaining two.

“I got ridiculed here a few weeks ago for reporting my understanding that Harvard and Yale went to SCEA after they were overwhelmed with unrestricted EA applications when they first abandoned ED, so it’s interesting to know that the same thing happened to BC when they went unrestricted. It’s also interesting to see that BC is saying it will limit ED admissions to 40% of its class. Gosh, why would they do that?”

  • Probably because shifting your announced policy from "no ED anywhere for our applicants" to "our applicants can now apply ED to US" take a bit of time :wink: If anything BC has proven to be open to change over the past couple of years.

"I wouldn’t characterize that piece as “thoughtful,” though. It sort of waved at the standard criticisms of ED, and then sort of waved at the justifications. The most important one being, apparently, “the kids want it.”

  • Um, that was BC's reason. The author doesn't quite buy into that, although no one can doubt the increasing popularity of ED.

“Which is very odd, because of something the author doesn’t bother to note: In general, EA colleges, even SCEA ones, tend to get a much higher number of early applications than similar colleges with ED do.”

  • Sure but that might have everything to do with prestige, not SCEA. And, of course, UChicago's own early numbers have only increased since introducing ED1/ED2. However - ED can keep application numbers to a managable level and allow AO's to spend more time on each one. It's one response to the issue of diminishing returns - something that the author DOES note.

“And colleges with unrestricted EA get the most early applications of all – as BC apparently learned this year. It seems clear that kids like some form of early application program, but it also seems clear that the early application program they really like is EA, not ED. The Fallows piece was thoughtful”

  • That makes sense since it's - well - UNrestricted. The school doesn't have to be your first choice so the cost of applying is lower. Still seeing some pretty large application numbers, however, for top early-restricted schools (SCEA/REA/ED). They are climbing. Maybe unrestricted EA is climbing more.

“It would be interesting to know how many of Chicago’s early applications are ED and how many EA. I haven’t really followed numbers in recent years, but it used to be the case that among elite privates only Penn and Cornell got as many as 5,000 ED applications per year, while Chicago (with, then, lower overall applications) was getting 10,000+ EA applications, and MIT 8,000. Chicago’s early application numbers are still sky-high, but I wonder whether it is getting more ED applications than anyone else, or if it is still mainly getting EA applications.”

  • H and Y are the 6-7k range now. G-Town and ND (REA) over 7k. MIT 9.6k.

For UChicago it’s a guess (like Stanford they don’t publish numbers) but we know that WaPo reported 15,000k early apps. If accurate, that’s up approx. 2k from last year and the year before. Both those ED years, btw, had about +1,000 early apps over Class of 2020 (last year of just EA). It’s possible that the 2k jump reflects a bunch of ED1 applications because "ED1 is the way to get in . . " - that might explain what appears to be a high number of ED1 rejections and an offer to allow the remaining to switch to ED2. But we don’t know.

Anyway, If UChicago ED1 tracks Yale’s SCEA, then they could have seen somewhere between 6k and 7k ED1 apps. That would imply something in the 10%-11% accept rate at the old ratio of 2:1 ED:EA. However, the majority would still be EA.

366

Another thought about that early application surge for BC:

When they dropped the restriction that you couldn’t apply anywhere ED, they apparently “opened the floodgates” (in the author’s terminology). This makes total sense because it likely meant that a bunch of applicants had applied elsewhere ED (likely a top school) and had BC lined up early as a strong second choice. This might have tipped off the Admissions peeps that ED1/ED2 is a more intelligent way to manage that application stream, better matching an admission decision with degree of interest while not over-taxing the admissions staff or forcing costly errors due to diminishing returns.

367

Certainly ED is helping to lower the number of applications that have exploded over the last decade.

368

It looks like it’s gradually sinking in with the world at large that UChicago has, in effect, shifted the admissions calendar forward. The “switch to ED II” offers are basically the new deferrals, 2/3 or more of the enrolled class will be admitted ED I/II and some number of the remainder who would have been admitted RD are being pulled forward into the EA round. One challenge will be to admit enough RD applicants to make it look like a significant number of spaces are still available that late in the game.

369

RD rounds at every top school are becoming problematic, the number of acceptances in the early round bear that out.

370

I agree with @CU123 . Many elite schools have an RD admit rate around 5% or lower.

371

“I’m wondering if Chicago’s position on free speech is drawing these rich white identitarians to Chicago over HYPS where the diversity play and speech censorship is getting more play? For white identitarians these issues seem to be important.”

Freedom of speech in a university is important to more than “white identitarians”. E.g., Cornel West: https://jmp.princeton.edu/statement

372

Speaking of Rachel Fulton Brown, “white identitarians” and free speech at the university, here is Peter Wood’s take on the dustup of last year: https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2018/09/10/slurring-medieval-scholar-attempt-silence-those-who-disagree-opinion

Brown is not the only professor in the academy who declines to “tow the line” on thought conformity, but she is part of a dying breed - particularly in the History Department.

If one is looking for diversity of thought, UChicago is the place to go. It’s not perfect, but they seem to be far more interested in your ideas than your racial identity.

373

Here is a current student’s experience at UChicago regarding wealthy peers:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/voices/2019/04/20/college-admissions-bribery-scandal-donors-elite-column/3484601002/?fbclid=IwAR3zNPlg0T7zqaW00TnqHd6PzA6C0HeErg_yJfZrDAYWTR7pq_g8_4mEyq4

374

That’s a great article. Even mentions that no one cares about all the Canada Goose. His testimony about his peers is especially moving.

That young man will go far, simply because he recognizes and takes advantages of the opportunities that wealth provides.

375

Re article: DD has a winter coat bought at 75% off from Lands End (spring sale planning!), but wears a jacket bought on sale at Target. She spent her spring break vacation here with her family, and we told her if she overslept and missed her flight home, she’d have to pay the change-flight fee. She was renting used books to save about $20 a quarter (I finally told her I’d pay the difference for her to BUY used books, because I romanticize the idea of looking back at one’s annotated college books decades later ). The kids from her House take the bus together, not Uber. I don’t think students like this are at all unusual at Chicago.

376

It is interesting that the article discusses several of the subjects that have been discussed here on CC.

377

@Lea111 I have the same romantic notion about those college books. My kids don’t get it . . .

378

@CU123 at #375 read his NYT piece from two years ago (link provided in current article). Does this kid have the ear of Nondorf and Zimmer or what?

379

…says this student in USA Today.

Well, some in the administration seem to think the donors should be treated as if they do: https://projects.chicagomaroon.com/article/2019/career-advancement-leak/

I literally found this on the front page of the Chicago Maroon website.

And, since someone mentioned Canada Goose, on the same Chicago Maroon page, we find this: https://www.chicagomaroon.com/article/2019/4/19/flight-canada-goose/

UChicago is one of the world’s great universities - I will say this over and over again. But if it takes steps designed to make it look more like the Ivy League, amazingly enough, it will end up looking more like the Ivy League - in every respect.

380

What? on the front page of the Maroon website? Shocking!