<p>My son is studying CE at a highly ranked UC. Because he is really struggling with the math and has taken just about every math class twice, he is in his third year but just a sophomore. Very bright but has some ADD/executive skills issues, and now has extreme test anxiety with math. He is self taught in several programming languages and can build just about anything - he's heading up the robotics team this year and does very well in "hands on" classes. He is now on his way to failing Physics 2B. My question is how to advise or help him. He is working with a tutor but I wonder if we are doing him any favors, as he still has so much to do to earn his degree. How do you tell a kid who's always wanted to be an engineer that he needs to change majors? His grades won't allow him to transfer - at this point I he is on academic probation and really down. Are there any engineering related majors that don't require so much math? I can't imagine him in a non-tech related field as that is his passion.</p>
<p>Ok, I was also diagnosed with AD/HD a long time ago, am a self-taught programmer and maybe I can give a few suggestions.</p>
<p>In my opinion, a lot of doing well in introductory college mathematics (proof-based, upper-level math classes that engineers don’t have to take require more) has a lot to do with drill and a solid foundation in basic algebra and arithmetic. </p>
<p>These introductory physics and mathematics classes require regular homework completion and independent learning and practice, and discipline and are not motivated by a “hands-on” creation. If these are the qualites he lacks, it still may not be too late for him to adopt these qualities. Test anxiety often results from underpreparation. I feel anxiety when I haven’t studied adequately but otherwise I don’t. Try to call the disability services office to see whether he qualifies for extra time or encourage him to take advantage of the academic resources (TA/professor office hours) available at the university. But I don’t believe AD/HD is why he is doing poorly in these courses; there is probably an underlying lack of motivation, apathy, or poor study skills.</p>
<p>There are only 5 or so math classes that students have to do so if I were him, I would rough it out, provided I were interested in engineering. Upper level engineerng courses especially at UC schools will be very theoretical and not “hands on”. But if he develops these skills, he might be well prepared to succeed in these classes.</p>
<p>If he is really down, I would suggest perhaps taking a semester off and trying to figure out what he wants to do and perhaps working at a local business, provided he can find a job.</p>
<p>A Princeton Review website suggested
-Computer and Information Science
-Information Technology
-Computer Graphics
-Web Design
None of these requires a whole lot of math, as far as I know.</p>
<p>SD1Mom,
Based on what you have described, I think your son spends way too much time in front of the screen. Study of math requires an environment that is very different from what he is comfortable with - programming. I feel that doing math problems in an environment free of computer screens will certainly help.</p>
<p>TippuSultan, often I watch videos online to get math help. </p>
<p>Possibly he could do the same. Youtuber “PatrickJMT” is a lifesaver and has 100’s of math videos that explain everything clearly.</p>
<p>SDmom,
Your son seems to be a smart guy. It’s not easy to learn programming on your own and not anyone can do robotics. He seems like the more practical guy who can do stuff and not interested in the theory behind it. Unfortunatley, engineering degrees focus on theory and practical aspects of engineering. Technical schools like ITT offer engineering technology degrees that are practical. I wouldn’t recommend going there though since some degrees aren’t accredited. I think your son can get through all the theory classes if he tries harder because, again, he seems like a smart guy. Possibly take remaining lower division math classes at a CC and then reapply for UCSD. I hear those who get put on academic probation and come back actually EXCELL when they come back simply because they try harder.</p>
<p>If you’re 100% sure that he shouldn’t get an engineering degree and get a degree without math, there are humanities majors; but, those won’t get you any good jobs.</p>
<p>What, if any, classes has he done well in at the UC? Are there faculty members involved with the robotics team? I would suggest he sit down with faculty who know him well and see what they advise.</p>
<p>There’s probably two factors that are causing problems - poor study skills and poor time management.</p>
<p>He needs to find out how he studies best. Some people may study best by attending study groups regularly. Others might be better off by themselves. Some may study best by spending countless hours working on a problem until they finally get it right. Others may prefer being shown the way. There’s a lot more to it than that and I’m sure if you search around you can find a lot of resources on effective studying.</p>
<p>Once he knows how to study, it’s time to make room for it. Once again, what works for one may not work as well for another. If he finds it difficult to actually start studying it may be helpful to attend some regularly scheduled thing, like a study group or office hours. Setting a strict schedule may also help. Also, when he needs to study he really needs to say to himself “it’s time to study” and just start studying. There will always be 1,000 excuses why studying can be put off another hour or two or until another day. Ignore those, just do it.</p>
<p>Thanks for all of your input - I agree that his study skills need improvement, though he does seem to learn well online. But perhaps the nature of the math requires more focus/fewer distractions. He did well in HS, but was challenged in classes that required a lot of timed essays and memorization. We had him tested senior year and discovered some reading/scanning and writing speed issues, which he is getting some accommodations for. With the late recognition of these problems he didn’t have a lot of time to unlearn bad habits, which are compounded by the pace and difficulty of his classes. Time management can be an issue as well, especially with larger assignments. He tends to do his work on his own, which makes it easy to procrastinate. The tutor is a sort of “accountability partner” to ensure that he is covering the material thoroughly. I’m going to suggest that he explore options with an academic counselor and talk to his CSE Prof. I guess I’m not ready to give up yet.</p>
<p>I strongly suggest that you have him see the doctor for a trail of an ADD medication. Otherwise he will struggle all his life not knowing whether focus/concentration drugs can help. He will not be addicted after a trial period and he will learn more about how his mind works, what distracts him, etc. He’ll be a great engineer if he passes!</p>
<p>Yes - thank you for that suggestion.
One of the problems we face is his resistance to the idea that there’s anything “wrong” with him - getting him to even go to the admin and request accommodations was difficult. He has friends who were diagnosed ADD years ago who have accepted that they may be wired a little differently and developed the skills they need to succeed. He doesn’t want to take meds, and keeps thinking if he just works harder/longer he’ll “get it” - all evidence to the contrary. Being a 20-something young man trying to be independent translates to not taking direction well. I’d welcome insight from any of you with experience dealing with ADD issues - did you resist making behavioral changes (meds, coaching etc.)? Was there an “aha!” moment or insight that motivated you to do things differently? My fear is that for him, it might take flunking out of school.
Perhaps this should be a different thread?</p>
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<p>Yes. I resisted AD/HD medications when I was younger (in middle school and high school) and I stopped taking them altogether in 11th grade. I think AD/HD is partially caused by attention problems but to think of it, I am not sure that I ever had the condition. I had attitude issues that were misdiagnosed.</p>
<p>The reason I was diagnosed with ADHD was because of my impusivity and behavioral problems which have declined over time. However, the town my family moved to was very strict and the harsh school punishments forced me to reconsider my behavioral patterns. And academically, I had a lot of bad habits (never studied in HS; still was in top 8% and got 2200+ SAT). Looking back, I could have done a lot better. But in college, I realized I had to study and developed study habits. I’m not perfect but I’m improving.</p>
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<p>There is no reason to give up, though you certainly want him to get out of academic probation quickly and get his GPA up! Tell him to try working in the library with peers on homework. There is a bit difference between working with other people and working together though. The latter can be harmful if the other person has a stronger grasp and he only gets the illusion of learning. But getting help from peers is great if one is stuck on a problem for a long time. Trust me, this happens!</p>
<p>But I have found I can’t study well in my dorms or with computers on (get distracted too much!) but can study quite well in a “studious environment” like the library. The dorms and especially the internet can be very distracting (but can also be helpful at times).</p>
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<p>This is a dangerous road. I’m sure he is reasonably bright given he was admitted to this highly ranked UC and is capable of achieving a lot more. But working smarter is much more important than working harder or longer. It seems as if a paradigm shift is needed and I’m sure he also realizes there are issues with the way he is doing things. And for some students, working on their own for hours just leads to a lot of frustration. There are academic resources at the colleges for a reason! </p>
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<p>The college life thread seems like a good place for this. But you’re new so don’t worry.</p>
<p>You could start a different thread here and/or on College Life… along the lines of “Engineering students and ADD/ADHD”… or whatever title you want. I suggest it not because it is inappropriate in this thread but because you may attract other players with valuable input.</p>
<p>As well, the Parent Forum can be a source of “second-hand” valuable experience. We don’t encourage duplicate threads, but it is ok in the case of attracting different responders who frequent different sub-forums.</p>
<p>Best of luck.</p>
<p>I think that’s a good idea - I’m so glad to have found this forum!</p>
<p>IF this were my kid, I would make it very plain that he will probably flunk out of the highly ranked UC as things stand, then point out his choices.</p>
<p>He can try the meds, and IMO that would probably be the edge he needs to succeed there.</p>
<p>He could forgo meds and try natural approaches, like gingko, cod liver oil and the like, but it would take longer to zero in on the best aid there and probably wouldn’t be as affective (i.e. he might flunk out in the process).</p>
<p>He could forgo meds and switch to an easier school. This might be enough to permit him to get the CE degree. Better to get a CE degree from a lesser school, where the work will be hard but not super-hard, than not to get the degree at all.</p>
<p>He could forgo meds and switch to a engineering tech major, where the math reqs are less. This would also probably require a switch in schools.</p>
<p>Personally, I toughed it out at a highly ranked big midwest engineering school. I almost certainly would have had an easier time of all my schooling had I been on these drugs. My aha moment (of understanding my difficulties) came when I researched ADD prior to getting my daughter a successful trial.</p>
<p>One thing you can hope for is that by trying the meds, he’ll at least learn what he needs to do to succeed with tedious tasks that don’t fully engage him.</p>
<p>As things stand, he will probably flunk out of this school with an extreme test anxiety in math. That is NOT what you want, so you surely need to take some action. I’d have him come home to the CC, try ADD drugs, monitor his reactions, get some decent grades, then transfer to a lesser school. Good luck!</p>