Advice? Less history, more science, and summer Calc

<p>Hi gang, </p>

<p>I found myself seated next to our HS principal at a Volley for the Cure event yesterday, doing scoreboard, and we got to talking about my D'15. He gave me some things to think about I'd like to run by the CC parents.</p>

<p>D is a sophomore and is so far interested in some pretty selective colleges. She's a strong student and enjoys science the most but gets As in most everything. She probably enjoys history the least. Her only B so far (in years) has been in Geometry. She loves Algebra, and Alg 2, but Geometry was just a struggle for her. Principal says she's probably a logical thinker, whatever that means in relation to Geometry and Algebra.</p>

<p>He suggested that since she is "only" in Algebra II this year, that she take Calc AB (which is, I guess, an AP course?) the summer between junior and senior year so she can take Calc BC her senior year. He says "most selective colleges want to see this". Agree? </p>

<p>She's had pre-AP Bio, now in pre-Chem 2 (both are like honors science, highest offered at that grade level) and will take IAP - Integrated Analysis and Physics next year (aka pre-calc and Physics taught together). Since the only history she HAS to take to graduate is US Gov, and that's senior year, I wonder if it makes sense to take AP Chem or AP Bio next year instead of a history. Principal thought so. He thought Bio but of course she will have just finished Chem so maybe going right to that makes sense, with AP Bio senior year. Thoughts?</p>

<p>Appreciate your input. Obviously this is not pressing but I wanted to ask while it's fresh.</p>

<p>(BTW, I've been around a year, had to change accounts due to a tech difficulty. S is a college frosh).</p>

<p>I think some colleges request 3 yeras of “social science”, so make sure she has that</p>

<p>I agree, a lot of schools want 3 years, at least, in all subject areas, math, science, English, social sciences (usually specific courses are listed, history, economics,etc.), especially if she is looking at selective schools. Algebra II as a sophomore should put her on track for AP Calc BC senior year, after her pre-calc class, unless your school doesn’t use that as a feeder into AP Calc AB/BC. Our kids went right into BC after pre-calc. BC calc just moves faster and the last 1/4th of the year is different material from AB so taking both is really repeating AB.</p>

<p>How many AP classes will she have when she graduates?</p>

<p>^ ^</p>

<p>Echo that. Most T-30 colleges/universities I looked at required a minimum of 3 or more years of Social science. </p>

<p>Moreover, I’m surprised your D’s high school only required US history to graduate.* Most high schools I knew required not only US history, but also US government, Global, and European history. My STEM-centered urban public magnet high school also required us to take 1 semester of Econ which made the social science requirement for graduation 4 years.</p>

<ul>
<li>Reminiscent of an older college classmate who attended a private day school where he was allowed to graduate with only 2 years of science…and non-lab “rocks for jocks” type courses at that.</li>
</ul>

<p>In my opinion, the main advantage to taking AP Bio or AP Chem as a junior rather than a senior is that both courses provide good preparation for the relevant SAT Subject Tests (as well as the AP tests) if taught well. </p>

<p>Students who are applying to colleges that require SAT Subject Tests need to take them by early senior year at the latest, and it’s nice to be well prepared for them, without having to do a lot of studying on your own.</p>

<p>cobrat–I was amazed at that as well. Our district requires 4 years of social sciences to graduate-a mix of history classes, econ, psychology, etc. The only “required” history class specifically is US History though. All sophomores take that class at either the AP, honors or general level. Junior and senior year though, there are 100’s of classes they can pick from. Freshman year is a civics based course, also required.</p>

<p>Sorry I wasn’t clear. What I mean re: history is she is only required to take US History (done last year), Euro History (doing AP Euro now) but those are done or in progress. The only one she will need *after this year *will be US Gov (will do senior year). So 3 years are all that are required. She’d lose an Honors diploma by taking 3 and not 4 but principal says this is really no big deal especially for college as it’s something that is listed in a program at graduation and that’s about it.</p>

<p>Apparently our HS has both AP Calcs, AB and BC, and you need at least “A” to take BC. From our course catalog:</p>

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<p>Any thoughts on taking AP Chem right after Pre-Chem II and saving Bio for senior year, or would you say that’s just a matter of preference? It seems to me that taking Chem while it’s still fresh would be a good idea.</p>

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<p>Huh? Seems like she is on this track:</p>

<p>9th: Geometry
10th: Algebra 2
11th: Trigonometry and Precalculus
12th: Calculus (AB or BC)</p>

<p>If she is good at math, she should be able to complete calculus BC as a senior, assuming that the high school offers a one year BC course starting from precalculus.</p>

<p>With respect to history and science, it is probably best to take at least the following for college prep purposes:</p>

<p>3+ years of history and social studies, including US history and government
3+ years of science, including all three of biology, chemistry, and physics</p>

<p>Presumably, the integrated precalculus and physics course would be one each of math and physics, right?</p>

<p>Does the school offer other social studies type courses that are not history (government / political science, economics, psychology, geography, etc.) that she may be more interested in?</p>

<p>Steve, not sure how many APs she will have, this is what is offered:</p>

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<p>I marked the ones she’ll probably do so 8-9.</p>

<p>OHMomof2–the way I am reading that is that they need 83% or better in their math class junior year to take either AB or BC. I don’t know your grading scale but in our school, that would be a B+ or better in junior year math to take AP BC. If your DD is a good math student, she should be able to handle BC without taking AB. None of the top math kids at our school take AB and most of the B or better math students take BC.</p>

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<p>Yes, it’s a science and a math, 2 credits. They just like to teach them together because they think it’s more effective to apply the precalc right away.</p>

<p>Yes, there are several that look interesting (to me…but social sciences were my thing). But they are not AP courses. Econ, Psych, military history, current issues, all kinds of stuff.</p>

<p>I’ll double check that Steve. It does say “summer work required”, which I guess is what he referred to as far as going into BC instead of AB senior year.</p>

<p>Also: “BC Calculus is for students who complete Calculus AB prior to their senior year.”</p>

<p>Most AP classes require summer work. Our kids had books to read for their AP Lang/Lit classes the past couple summers, they had math packets for AP Calc BC this past summer, etc. I think that is what they are talking about, not taking AB in the summer.</p>

<p>Do you have a copy of the school profile ? I would advise u to get a copy</p>

<p>Some schools make you take a whole year of AB before you can take BC. It’s really dumb since AB only covers a semester of college math. Most schools give kids a choice between AB or BC after taking pre-calc. Unfortunately for you if your school assumes you have already covered the AB curriculum before starting BC you are going to have to cover it. If your child is planning on going on in the sciences or especially engineering it’s probably a good idea to get BC Calc under your belt, but not at the expense of other productive ways of spending your summer IMO.</p>

<p>If she has US history, AP Euro and AP Gov she probably has enough social science to make most colleges happy. Here in NY two years of Global History and one year of US history are required. One son took AP Euro in addition (and did AP World for his second year of Global) the other did AP Econ for his social science course senior year.</p>

<p>My daughter’s AP Chem teacher advised her to take AP Chem right after Chemistry. So, she took AP Chem before AP Bio. My daughter thought AP Chem helped a little bit on AP Bio. Also, the AP Bio syllabus/exam was recently re-done so taking it a little later may help – people will have more experience with the new exam.</p>

<p>There are some schools/majors that require a math SAT II and a science SAT II and they want chemistry or physics, not bio. That’s another vote for taking AP Chemistry as a junior.</p>

<p>Would the counselor still mark this plan as “most rigorous”?</p>

<p>It sounds like your school requires Calc AB before Calc BC. How many kids actually take Calc BC each year?</p>

<p>I think it wouldn’t be the end of the world for college admissions (or freshman classes) if she only took Calc AB. If she has nothing that ranks higher for her junior summer, then I guess taking Calc AB would be a good plan. The only reason to make sure she’s made it through Calc BC would be in the colleges she’s looking at require it. There are only a handful that do.</p>

<p>Our school requires AB before BC. However, the honors AB class goes well into what passes for calc 2 at most selective schools (giving pre-meds and biology majors a major boost) and BC calc goes well into what is generally taught in calc 3, helpful for all other science majors and all engineering majors. Both classes go well beyond material covered on their respective AP exams, and students who have gotten a B or better generally report that getting a 5 on the AP exam is trivial. I think this is typical of many schools that spread the classes over two years. Students who did not accelerate in middle school sometimes take algebra 2 or pre-calc over a summer in order to fit two years of calculus into high school.</p>

<p>That said, students from our high school have gotten into the most selective schools in the country (including MIT) over the past several years, without having taken BC calc.</p>

<p>The big downside to spending senior summer in a classroom, is that the soon-to-be college applicant misses out on a critical time to work on meaningful ECs.</p>

<p>I would try to find something better for her to do.</p>

<p>And I would challenge the school principal about why they can’t teach BC in one full year (without the AB prereq) like thousands of other high schools. Advanced math students like your D can easily handle the load.</p>

<p>mathinokc, still “most rigorous”, yes. More than one way to skin that cat in terms of science classes, but Calc is the top math (unless you go to Kenyon or Denison for classes, which one or two kids do each year) .</p>

<p>And thanks for the Chem info, that confirms my feeling on it. It’s supposed to be for 12th grade (concurrent with Calc) but I bet they’d let her take it 11th after pre-Calc. They’re pretty accommodating.</p>

<p>Yes, AB seems to be required before BC, both of which are full year courses, so that has to be junior year or in summer. Not sure how many kids take BC. I don’t see her doing engineering but I suppose you never know. She loves science, isn’t all that into taking things apart and putting them back together, which is what I think of with engineering-bound kids. Pre-med, PA, something along those lines maybe.</p>

<p>sybbie, I have our course catalog and I have seen our profile (the one that goes out to colleges with transcripts, I assume you mean?).</p>

<p>ECs…whew. She is a varsity LAX player and JV (this year) vball with lots of time spent on that outside school. She has other interests but those take a lot of time. However, not so much in summer.</p>

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<p>Yes, this is what I mean as the profile is what she is going to be evaluated against. If she is looking at more selective schools, she should try to take the most rigorous courses offered and do well in those courses.</p>

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<p>I disagree that it is not a big deal because there are going to be students in the pool from her school who have achieved the course work for an honors diploma. If the course work for the honors diploma and there is weighting attached, it could push your D down in the rankings. Unless your principal writes the school profile, decides what should be given, or really has insight to what type of student gets accepted where, I would take what he says with a grain of salt. He will probably have an overview as far as the school’s overall grad rate, the % that attend 4 year colleges and perhaps the # of students admitted to selective colleges from your school, but he probably can’t drill down the stats for you. If your school has naviance, that would be a good place to start.</p>

<p>You should see the AP guidance, Ap administration/instruction or the GC/College counselor to get a better idea as to how students with honors diplomas fare in the college process.</p>