You are the parent. The kid does not get to dictate family vacation plans. Tell him no and you then you all go on vacation. I can’t imagine canceling a family vacation because this.
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The AMC-12 is a pretty brutal test, and I don’t recommend it for anyone who hasn’t been doing competition math for years. If he has been, then AoPS has several classes related to preparing for it.
Also, I echo what others are saying regarding admission to MIT or its peers. Many strong STEM high school students have reached out to me over the past few years to chance them because I know the profiles of dozens of kids who have recently applied and were accepted or rejected from those schools. Among unhooked applicants, it was a crapshoot for anyone who doesn’t have national or international level achievements. @ArdenNJ, if you want more discussion about this, PM me.
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Hi @ArdenNJ,
This sounds stressful! Firstly, your son is unrealistic and doesn’t seem to have a strong grasp of the admissions situation at these schools and is setting himself up for big disappointment as well as burnout. He is unlikely to gain admission to these “lesser” schools, let alone MIT or Princeton. It is a mad, mad world out there. So many kids have top academic accomplishments. Colleges are looking for the right fit. 3 CC classes will not make a difference here. As long as your kid is taking the most rigorous at school, that is what counts.
If he wants a leg up in getting noticed by top admissions, I would invest in competitions towards a national level award, along with the givens of top SATs, AP scores and GPA. He does not need CC classes to prepare for APs. APs replace college classes. This doesn’t make sense. And, I agree, he’s headed to burnout.
In terms of standing out – science fair towards Broadcom, ISEF, Regeneron, etc are top awards that draw attention. AMC and Olympiad are good. Schools want to see a passion. CC classes don’t show this. Passion projects do. Even if it’s hackathons or summer workshops.
Put your foot down. Choose a couple weeks he can do a workshop or SAT prep. Find ways to connect him with local resources (universities, labs, etc) for a project or an internship after Jr year. For now, go to Europe. Be a kid!
Also, get your kid to start looking and loving a wide variety of schools on various tiers. My kid has the grades the accelerated curriculum, the APs, the SATs, the magnet school, national awards, state awards, regional awards, great ECs. Rejected SCEA. Not even deferred. Hoping for some top tier schools, but very excited about some matches and safeties as well.
Good luck!
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Dear Parents
Thank you. As a father I can’t thank you enough. You are all saying the same thing I am saying to him. I made him read all of your posts. This is what he wants you to read. Please don’t judge me as a father. I am an expat who never went to school in USA. Feel free to share your honest responses with him.
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Hi Parents,
This is OP’s son. Thank you very much for taking the time and responding to my father’s posts. Here are my notes
#1 I have been doing close to the bare minimum since middle school, burnout isn’t going to happen anytime soon.
#2 The community college classes I want to take are pre requisites for higher level classes there, including discrete math, linear alg, multi var calc, programming in assembly, etc.
#3 I actually have an interest in these classes and I know that taking community college classes will have almost no effect on my admissions (going to be a physics major)
#4 I am aiming for high competition scores as my main talking point in admissions
#5 I have mocked a perfect score on the ACT math part easily, English is the main worry
#6 I can self study from books, I don’t need live teaching.
Based on my above notes, do you have any additional advice for me? Thank you for your great help so far and I would like to thank in advance for your additional responses.
To the student:
Assuming that you can take calculus BC in 11th grade next year (2 grade levels ahead), you can take any of the higher level math courses (multivariable calculus, linear algebra) afterward (the following summer or in 12th grade).
Probability and statistics is not really important to take now. Wait until you can take calculus-based probability and statistics courses.
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welcome @ArdenNJ jr!
First question: did you read the Applying Sideways link, and if so, what did you think of it? I know it’s old, but the guy who wrote is still at MIT admissions, and pops in to CC from time to time, and stands over the post. Your view on it would be interesting & probably helpful.
Second question: have you done any competitions yet?
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Thanks to your son for reading and engaging in this conversation!
I have two questions for him - what do you like to do outside of physics and math?
What do you like to do with other people?
I ask, because MIT and Princeton prioritize students who have a strong activity outside of courses and scores and work well in groups. If those schools are your targets then it behooves you to spend just as much effort on other activities and being with people as you do on academics. A trip to Europe is a great thing to do to expand your horizons.
There’s diminishing returns admissions-wise to continue to spend time on your strength, when there are maybe gaps in the other elements of your application.
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To the son/student: I am really impressed by this articulate, mature post and it did change my view a little. However, I still feel, what’s the rush. Years of high school and college stretch out before you and you will be able to take all those classes in time. I would hate the mom to miss out on the Europe trip (if that still happens). If you really don’t want to go, perhaps there is a friend you could stay with.
Please make sure to get to know some other schools. Google “Little Ivies” and “Colleges that Change Lives” to start. It really helps to have a range of schools that you like. I understand there are two “dream schools” for you and your chances may be good, but you will be glad to have others to apply to. Good luck!
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Welcome @ArdenNJ jr,
Tell me about your competition test scores. I have a good understanding of the impact of math awards on admissions, but less so on other awards.
I also recommend that you put together a comprehensive list of safety, match, and reach schools that you would be excited to attend.
For example, I traveled extensively with my children for college visits, and they both identified Michigan as a match school they would be excited to attend. They were both accepted EA and were thrilled to receive that good news early. Even though both went elsewhere, having Michigan in their back pocket took a lot of pressure off for the rest of the admissions cycle.
What’s your version of Michigan?
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I just want to comment to OP that UMich is a reach/unlikely school for OOS applicants, and becoming more so.
Every student should have one auto admit school with rolling admission on their college list. A high stats student will likely get a ton of merit and honors college. Many students have chosen their highly likely/safety because of all the perks.
Spend your time researching those schools and pick the one that will be the best fit.
Then start working on your matches. Schools like RPI would seem like a good fit.
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I totally agree. I studied for the SAT over my sohp->junior summer, and getting my goal score in my junior year December was a liberating feeling.
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Michigan admitted 21.9% of OOS students last year. IMO if Michigan is considered a reach for this applicant, then colleges like MIT and Princeton which have low single digit admission rates despite a stronger applicant pool, should be considered out of reach.
That said, I completely agree with the rest of your comment, particularly your suggestion of adding RPI.
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Have you been over to the UMich thread this cycle? ; ).
They deferred a good number of very high stats applicants and haven’t released another big wave yet.
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I have not. Thanks for the heads up that Michigan might rapidly be getting more competitive. The final numbers will be informative.
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Arden you may also want to consider and recalibrate just how hard it is to get into some of the schools you are discounting. For instance last year Brown’s regular decision acceptance rate was 3.5% and 5.4% in total…
This year Browns ED applications were up 11% suggesting RD will be even more competitive.
Similarly other posters are highlighting how competitive schools such as Michigan have become.
Setting your sights high, a willingness to put in the hard work, and your apparent determination are all admirable but they hardly guarantee admission to MIT or Princeton. Particularly if you are so focused on narrow academic areas of interest that your application will lack holistic appeal.
I am pulling for you to achieve all your goals but caution you to be fully informed to avoid unwarranted and unnecessary disappointment down the road. Good luck.
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Perhaps this is not relevant - but I think UMD is for many a primary, but for others a fallback from Michigan.
Per a student who just attended admitted student day (I can’t source this otherwise), here is UMDs incoming stats. Perhaps I’ll get blocked for non-relevance but just trying to add onto @momofboiler1 point about the desired schools being very competitive - and in many cases more competitive for OOS. In other words, if UMD is here, where is Michigan going to be - and don’t forget, many with these stats will get rejected -I had to do a double take when I read them. Of course, we need to see them officially to validate.
It’s critical to be realistic in your application set - you need the reaches - the Michigans - but you need targets and safeties too - and many miss the safety.
Wanted to share this information from the Virtual Admitted Student program we attended on Friday 3/4 - from James Massey, Director of Undergraduate Admissions:
*The incoming Freshman class is “the most talented in the 166 year history” of UMD College Park.
*55,000 applications for a class of 4500 students.
*Average SAT 1390-1530.
*Average ACT 32-35
*Average GPA 4.45
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Your Michigan data is old. Their overall acceptance rate was barely 20% last year, so I am guessing OOS was in the mid-teens. Still higher than an Ivy, but not a match for many kids.
https://admissions.umich.edu/apply/first-year-applicants/first-year-student-profile
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Dear Student,
I would take opportunities that aren’t full college course to develop skills. You do not need to be set up for discrete math (I say this as a parent whose kid took it as a part of a HS magnet program) now. Have you been doing the bare minimum for that last 2 years of HS? That could be a problem. Show your dedication by taking more rigorous classes at your school.
If interested in math competitions, discrete math is a good idea, but you don’t need a lot of pre-reqs for that. Art of Problem Solving is a good start there. If you have no previous success with competition math, consider another avenue. It’s late to start with this, and it requires a specific set of skills.
Consider a science project (any time) or internship (after Jr year) that could lead to a paper to submit to Exploravision or a science fair entry. Think projects. Summer programs might be a good place to explore a possible project.
Consider that you may not be correct about burnout. Just because you did the minimum doesn’t mean you have a full tank for super accelerated 2 years. I could mean the opposite, and stamina could be an issue. I would encourage smaller endeavors outside of school and focus on rigor in school and keep that GPA high. Having both might be a challenge.
Do you have any other passion that is noteworthy? Art? Music? Nurture that.
Also, broaden your idea of a good school. You are unlikely to be admitted to the schools you snub. Find schools that are likely admits and find things to love about them. They are out there, but you need to search for them. Many lower ranked schools will have excellent faculty and programs to nurture your interests.
Finally, it is unrealistic and unfair to expect a parent to change the family plans to accommodate this plan. I realize I say this as a parent, but my kids agree. Propose something that works better with your parents’ plan.
All the best.
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If they are in NJ, wouldn’t Rutgers and other NJ publics be part of the application list?
Congrats to your kids! Would you mind sharing when they applied? Applications have really ratcheted up, and Michigan is really not a safety for anyone (even EA). But, (if Student is reading) applying EA is great to see if you can get in some places and take the heat for for sure!